The Best Counterspells In Cube - #58

In this episode we're looking at the best counterspells that see play in cube, which ones can go in every cubes, and which ones can be for more specific cubes.

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00:04:25 - Counterspells for every cube
00:20:16 - Cube specific counterspells
00:34:54 - Powerful cubes only
00:45:06 - Honorable Mentions

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Chapters

• 4:25 Counterspells for every cube
• 20:16 Cube specific counterspells
• 34:54 Powerful cubes only
• 45:06 Honorable Mentions

Transcript

0:03

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Powerful Nothing and Magic The Gathering Cube podcast. I'm your host, Dan, and as always, I'm joined by my co-host James James. How are you doing? Are you ready for this week's conversation? I'm always very shocked about magic cards. We do love a little bit of Magic The Gathering, and today we have a fun. One day we are going to be talking about the best counter spells in cube. So before we kind of jump into our episode, a few things to kind of talk about, and that primarily we're not going to be talking about every counter spell ever printed. This is not a we rank all 500 counter spells episode, because realistically, there's only about 20 or so cards that see play in most cubes, but there's only like so many slots for counter spells in cube like 360, you might have between like eight and ten and a 4 or 50, you might have between 10 and 12 in a 540 some, and a 540 size cube somewhere between 12 and 14 and a 720 like 14 to 20, that kind of thing. But like, like you, there is a very strong, very solid pool of counter spells that we're going to be talking about for you to choose from, basically. And we are going to be kind of discussing why they are good and we're going to kind of ranking isn't the right word, but kind of we're going to be grouping them and talking about the most optimal in the vast majority of situations. Yeah. For sure. And, what can spells you should put in what cubes? Because I think often the, the, the nature of whatever permission you include in a cube is, it's actually pretty impactful. Often to have a cube plays out even even though it's quite a small number of cards most of the time. So I can bet these can be the cards for, frequently do swing games. Yeah, I'll be honest, counter spells ruined my first couple of years of playing magic. All I want to do was play Atlanta rolls into my cruel, What do you mean? What do you mean? My spells gone? What? Yeah, I was definitely on the opposite side of this. I think this first time I watched professional magic was even for winning a photo with blue white control. Whatever win condition was elective and mortality to reshuffle and casting a million sphinxes revelations. And then that was just all I did and sanded for my first like two years of fighting magic. I had a great time. That's dreadful James, and you should feel bad. Yeah. I hate to tell you, this is the sort of magic flower, and that's at. Oh, I know, all good, all good. But yeah. So, so I think kind of the first place to start, James is let's start very high view okay. Why are decks running counter spells. What are we trying to do with them. Spells are firstly the main way you get to interact in blue light blue, which is not cat removal. Oh, why you didn't get good removal. But more often that counter spells let you interact with classes of cards. The nice stuff of interaction doesn't. Right. Your removal spell can't stop. Can't stop. Third card for spell. Your protection spell can't stop that creature. Counter spells, interaction most of the time, but works against pretty much anything. Obviously there's exceptions like uncountable spells, but in general stuff it says counter targeted spell works against pretty much everything. Okay, so you can use it to stop for your opponents threats because often even even when they're playing creatures, a lot of creatures come. So your opponent was still get value out of it. If you move it with an evil spell, it can't spell. Never hits. But I get no value. You stop it. I can also let you trade up on mana. This is a really big deal. If you use AA2 mana spell. So fast. Six mana spell. Let's put you at a huge advantage. You could be spending the four mana you set. You well up on that exchange on a facet of your own. That is often how you get ahead in the game of magic. And you can use it as an extra level of protection to protect your own proactive place, which is, generally a thing which these you need to have a cheap counter spell spot to work because you have to playing them alongside of that. But, that can be very powerful too. Yeah, definitely. Let's kind of talk about the sections today. So we kind of broken this down into a couple of different categories. The first section is counter spells that can go in basically every cube like the caveat to this is kind of every cube that's looking to like curve out. There's a few cubes where they try to like not do anything until turn five. And in those scenarios, like cheap counter magic is kind of backbreaking and you need to adjust your curve accordingly. But basically we are talking about the majority of cubes that you will play on. Might go like the majority of cubes that you that you will play in person. Kind of like like like my my main cube, James's main powered cubes, that kind of stuff. Like like like any cube where the goal is to on turn one player one drop, one turn two player 2.12 and three player three drop that kind of thing. Just like like your bog standard Kirby out cube. These are the counter spells that you are going to see in those environments. First one to talk about. It's a classic for a reason. James. Actual factual Counterspell blue blue instant counter target spell. Very good, very back breaking the green player in me. Fear seeing Double Blue being left out. This is the epitome of everything that James talked about before. Interacts with with the opponent. It stops. It stops threats. It gives you that tempo advantage and can often go up on manner. Because it's only two mana to counter anything. Very solid card. Yeah. Counterspell very solid. Probably at its best. Probably one of the best ones here for an actual control deck, right. Because it's, unlike some of ones we'll talk about, it's is good for the entirety of the game. There's no limitation on it. It never, never becomes bad. And it's it deals with effects permanently. Counterspell. All right. Very obvious to talk about in an episode about counter spells. Next up is a card called Lose Focus. I think this card is really strong. One the blue instant replicate for a blue, which means when you cast a spell, copy it for each time you pay this repair cost, you may choose new targets for the copies and count the target spell. And this controller pays two generic. So this is a nice little counterspell that does scale. As the game goes, it can be less matter efficient because you have to put more Blue Manor into it if you want, if your opponent has more money. But the majority of the time, again, when your opponent is trying to play out on care of this counters, the mints can be one turn for it does what you need to do most of the time, but what puts this above other like quench I believe is the correct, quench variance of just two mana counter targets. And that's all they do, is the ability to scale into the late game and lose focus is really good at that. Yeah, I really like this one. I think it's pretty underrated actually. Like the the difference between blue blue and one a blue is huge. It's why I've and certain cubes, it certainly doesn't apply for all cubes, but I've often, argued that you should take cards like mana like over account, over straight up counterspell because they just go in more. That's, this gives you fat. It lets you cast it for one a blue early game. It's going to counter nice stuff for the first few turns of the game. But unlike some of these other conditional counters later on, this isn't that essentially just becomes less efficient. So, it needs to be, because your thing is, if you play one blue blue counter and that's they pay for basically counters, almost everything follow. Oh, they solve a game. So you can kind of think about this as a quench that becomes a cancel when it needs to later. And I think that's fairly strong. I like this a lot better, for example, than something like a miscalculation where it's the same for two mana, but that gets you the upside of you can cycle it later, but I don't really want to cycle like I don't want to have to cycle my counterspell like, so I want to keep being a good counterspell and lose focus does not. Yeah. Definitely. You. Yeah. You've touched on two cards that we are going to talk about. Let's so manly is a similar effect. So one on a blue instant kind of targets. And it's control is based three. Most of the time that three mana is really tricky to pay. Effectively this is full counter the majority of the time until very late in the game, in which case tough luck. But the majority of the time you snap this off quite early on in the game and you will counter things it. But like as spells are getting as as threats are getting cheaper. So as like Questing Beast is for mana, whereas previously you would have been six mana for that power and stats. Mana link will continue to get better because you are. It is better earlier in the game and as threats get cheaper, is fantastic at countering those type of cards that you want to counter. Again, like we mentioned mentioned, this is great at countering the minion boom. It does what you need when you want it to. Yeah, I really like man. Like I will say I think it is better in that which trying to end the game fairly promptly. You it does run into issues if you have an a full on control deck because late, very late in the game, this is a this does become that and often if if you're playing a control deck and you have say actual counterspell in your hand, you're going to be and you're not immediately getting that over, you're going to be very selective about when you use that kind of stuff. You can be sitting there saying like, well, I can let that frat folks, I can I can use my removal spell on that so I can let that turn in that, that. Counterspell for you. But I want to save the counterspell for the thing I can't interact with if I have anything else. Right. Camp spells your the interaction that basically works against everything in that scenario. Not only doesn't really let you do that because you're kind of on a clock to use it. You're aware that if you still have this manly in your hand and it's 1010 and you, it's not going to counter a lot of what you need to counter. Right. But having said that, it's it's very efficient. It's very easy to cast a hand in. And, you know, most cube decks aren't like that. I keep decks of trying to end the game. And this is very good at trading up and, and helping you turn the game into your advantage. Now, definitely a couple more I want to touch on and then we'll kind of, I guess, go into into it more detail. I kind of like why these good. Is Raymond Temple classic? One the blue in stone. Can't get spell. The spell is counted this way. Put it onto the into his own, his hand instead of into that player's graveyard, and draw a card. So card advantage on a counterspell is great. Obviously, with this you do have the thing of they can get it next time, but this is such a big tempo swing. Like if that's all they were doing on that, and effectively that's a time warp or time walk effectively you just reset them. And also it's like say they've done that on turn three. Maybe they don't want to replay their three jump on turn four. Maybe they want to play a different spell, in which case effectively you have delayed that spell. Wait a bit longer and it draws you a card. I'm assuming James, you're a big fan of Vermont love a romance love for and yeah, very much. Again, a, I can't spell out its best in Dex, but, not not to say aggressive text, but Dex, that's of, doing something proactive along with that. Right? Because, it doesn't deal with a threat. Permanent link. So it's maybe not a its best to control deck, but it does give you a huge amount of tempo. It keeps cards flowing. And, you know, I'd say if sometimes you can romance something that's basically only going to be good at turn, it's not going to be good on a future turn. Might say the manifest signal on turn to maybe don't want to spend turn three playing a signet, and then the signet ends up getting stuck in my hand. And that by the time they play it, it doesn't matter anymore. It's also very good at, if, if you can the something like a card for a spell of expensive cards or spam, then you can push that tempo advantage by maybe don't have time to tap have a card for a spell again, because they just need to be affecting the parts. And and those tempo advantages can be be a huge deal. Yeah. Yeah. And and they, they kind of go up if they've had to invest additional resources. So maybe if they stack some treasure or maybe they dealt some cards, a way to cast that big impactful spell. It's kind of similar as like bouncing the reanimate target. They might not always be able to get the same thing off again and again. Technically a different magic card is reprieve because there's one and a white to return target spell to his own his hand and draw a card. So technically different, but the similar type of effect. And I know the blue white mages and I'll play were very excited when this card got spoiled. And then another similar type of card is Memory lapse one, the blue instant counter target spell. If that spell is counted this way, you put it on top of it's on his library instead of into that player's graveyard. So slightly more of a delay on the spell. It's going back on top of the deck again. Similar thing they might not want to. They might like. You are mucking up the opportunity for them to cast it. They might not want to do it on the next, very, very solid. So these are kind of like the key list of like cards that I think. Anyway, they can go into literally any cube. The reason for that is all of these are fantastically cheap magic cards. Like, like effectively it's what version of art do you want is going to make the counterspell more expensive rather than availability of cards. So they're all so they're all fantastically cheap, meaning that they can go in any budget of cube. They're all relatively easy to cast. These are all less than two manner. One thing to touch on is why, while Counterspell, it's probably the strongest in terms of just like the effect is the strongest because it's two manner to stop the spell, it goes away. It might not be one that we take higher, because the double blue pips push you higher into the two blue pips is a cost like I one, pick one. James say it's a middling pack and it's a counterspell in a manner like, for example, which one are you taking? A completely depends on what cube I am drafting. Yeah. Okay. It in take me example of like current modo vintage cube as I sits now I would be a proponent for taking for Menelik because I think that locking yourself into a deck that can make blue blue that early is kind of tough. Like you need to be quite heavy blue for Counterspell where's Menelik goes in just almost any deck with any islands. But if it was, you know, it's his cube of five years ago, I'd probably have said Counterspell. And, a lot of other cubes. Like, I think you have a bit more time and you can fix your manner of it, of, or just cube. So I'm feel more confident, saying earlier, if I'm going to be heavy blue, then should I take out, though it is a matter of fact that we might know. Very nice. But yeah, these cards are also these are all common and uncommon. There's something to consider as well. These can all go in peasant upwards. And why these are great is they do scale with the threads. They are solid in a peasant cube where again you are probably not a cruel one, but the six man, leafy green variant. These will counter those when you need them to. But again, they can they can be in Power Cube. They can counter a demonic tutor or whatever. They can counter your high impactful cards. Them scaling. Scaling to whatever cube is fine is fantastic because they do their thing. They work around the they environment that they're in. Very well. Yes, for sure, for sure. I think these can these are very accessible if I will be powerful in basically any cube you put them in, they're never going to feel too good in the sense that they're, you know, the only thing going on in the cube that dominating what I will say for if, if you feel like your cube is in a spot where people are only playing the cheap cards and the expensive cards are costing you any more, if you have a bunch of two mana counter spells, that might be. Why? Because, these are very, very punishing for people trying to cast more expensive cards. Getting your six shop mana leaks and then. And your opponent casting and, 2 or 3 top on the same turn. But that swings game so pretty counter spells are so much that, you know, they're so much less impactful. If your opponent's turn four is cast to two drops than if it's cast for top right. They do exert a lot of downward pressure on people's curves, especially the cheap ones. So I think it is worth bearing in mind to like to your counter spells for the cube experience. You want and, yeah, it if you don't want too much of that pressure to be playing cheap things, then it could. One of the options available to you would be maybe switch one of the two mana counter spells to like a lot of their free spells of a bit more upside or right. Just, give it that little bit of extra breathing. But, yeah, there are these, but these are all very powerful, very flexible cards that that will be good in any cube. And, and I think they do a lot of good for cubes as well. I just, just want to put that caveat in that I have no idea. Right. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah I agree with that. But they also they kind of that nice little safety net as it were, to kind of stop players just running away with things. But like yeah, like basically if you just wanted to like a starting point for a list of counter spells, I think that is a solid place to start. So counterspell lose focus, mainly miscalculation, remand, reprieve and memory. But I think they're all so also that as we go through we will talk about some more powerful one. The more interesting ones tailor to your choices. But one thing just touch on just a little, difference between some of those is the difference between soft counters and hard counters worth touching on now, because we have talked about them. Counterspell is a hard counter. It doesn't have any additional condition to meet it. It just as counter target spell. A soft counter is something like manly where there is a way out of it for your opponent. Generally speaking, hard counters are better. But why? What? As we've discussed, one reason we like manly is that a lot of the time it is effectively a hard time because they don't have the manner to do it. Same with lose focus and replicate ability. You can kind of turn your soft counter into a hard counter. During the game. Is that fair, James? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it is pretty universally true, right? For, all the hard counters at the blue, at a thing that can out unconditionally and, deals with that permanently. Yes. It does. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because because this is ramen. Technically, a hard counter is, Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how we define this, but something like a unconditionally counters any spell that goes to the graveyard, I can't double play. Right. Yeah. So, the bits of a soft cancers, making the counter spells available for mortar, because not every deck is going to want a blue blue spell. A blue blue two drop. Right. But if you're in a very heavy blue deck and I'll see, like, count spells, that's one we've talked about, like it did just it deals with a fat format. Regardless of that math. Nice. Perfect. So let's keep it going. Let's talk about. So those are kind of if I saw any of those counter spells in a cube list, I would think, fine. Awesome, I get it. I know what they're doing. Let's talk about some slightly more specific ones. Let's do these two together because they're again, basically the same card, for spike single blue instant count. The target spell S controller pays one generic and magnetized, single white instant counter target spell. And this controller pays one. These are not ones for every cube, but I do think so. Magnetite has the nice kind of gotcha style environment, but for spike has that as well, because people don't often suspect people expect kind of like Mannerly encounters, but they don't often think about for spike and for spike variants like magnetite. These are by far worse than Mana League because it's only one mana to counter. So the opportunity cost of the opportunity for you to play them is less. Because if you're at any point doesn't play on curve, then these cards, you just can't cast them. But they do have quite a high gotcha moment. And they are I think they are solid in cubes that are powerful and fast, where you need the ability to interact early with them, but you're not going for the free counter spells, which we will get onto a bit later on. Yeah, I think like they they can have a great moment. I'm never a huge fan of in the sense of actually putting them in my decks because I feel like they're just so inconsistent. Like, even if your opponent isn't thinking around fail, playing around, that's all. That is just so easy for these not to line up for play. And they also have a massive issue for the horrible against like discard spells and stuff. Like, no, not in that your opponent will take your full spike, but they will take your good card. And then your spine will never line up. Like, you know, if you keep leaving up a blue, they will not play into your full spike. And then it's kind of becomes pretty D&D. Similarly, like it causes never been very spike attacks in both as badly as fast. Like, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess Manato the least has a thing of, like, baiting it because it's in white. Yeah, none of type is at least like, if you want that effect in white, that's the one that exists like that other faith. Whereas for spike, I think they have a better counters for a single blue mana. No, I think that's fair. But but again, like like I do think it's certain cubes might want that effect. Again, if you are if aggro is very, very strong, I think it can be a nice tool for that. Another card that kind of does a similar like follows very similarly along with what, we were just talking about and especially it gets so much worse if you don't knows about it is days one on the blue. You may return an island you control to its own his hand rather than pay. This spells mana cost around the target spell. And this is controller page one. The main reason why data is great is because you are tapped out and it is, it is one of the bigger gotchas. It is very much oh. They can't count on my spell. They have no mana. Surprise return and island days them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm. I'm completely upset. I really like days. The difference the big difference with these green days and for spike is for spike. I have to pay the cost of leaving up a blue mana. And then if my opponent doesn't play into it, then I'm just down that mana days I have always have up. I don't have to pay any costs to do that. Right. It's always available and at some point my opponent's probably going to tap out. I can't tell you if it's going to be this turn or a next turn, but I'm not having to leave up any manor, so I don't need to fix that. At some point. My opponent probably will tap out. When they do. Tap out will probably be something pretty high. Impacts and getting stays that could be very good. Obviously it does something outside of. Yeah, very. What if I turn your island to your hand on turn one? But you don't need to. Most of the time it will be at some point during the mid game you have Hayden will tap out and you days that spell. And then it's fairly good. Just on those actually I how because the opportunity cost for that or the the because the opportunity where days is strong is in theory quite small. It's in theory like turn to two four as it were. Like, how often are you just snapping days off the first thing that you can days, or are you potentially waiting for something later on? I mean, a lot of it depends on how big the cost of rotating the island is. Like, if I don't have any more land in hand and that's higher than that, obviously. Like it's a much lower cost, right? Whereas if it's, you know, I'm, I have my next land ready to go and my five times that I'm, I'm going to be very reluctant to return my fourth land to my hand does get it to leave at five by a third. I'll say it's like, yes, getting less likely to be impactful as we go later on, but it's surprising how often you do days someone on an eight, you know, because yeah, yeah, I like to be casting by people just like people multi file like people build their decks well so they get to use all their mana going to game and because, because it's always up by as they only have to tap out once and you get something like if it is on that late game, yes, I will tell you that a thing because I, you know, I don't know when I'm gonna have the opportunity, but, it is surprisingly live just because you always have it. You know. No, definitely. And, and also worth saying, they also have the secret tech of costing two manor if you have two mana later in the game, like, yeah, you don't, you don't have to tell them I. But yeah, very well. But the two mana thing is very real on like, holding up podcast days on turn two is like a favor thing to tell. Yeah. Because especially if you if I didn't play someone and said, well, that probably are going to play a two top on turn two most of the time. And you really don't want to turn your island your hand on turn two. So just past the podcast days of five reasonable like no, definitely. So I kind of like that. Last week we mentioned that there's been more opportunity cost for them. I think we are higher on days, but the next couple I think are a bit more deck specific, if that makes sense. Kind of like that's why these are for most or some cubes. The first one on this little section is cryptic command one blue blue blue. Instant. Choose to count. Target spell. Return target. Parent to his own his hand fabric which is your opponent's control or draw a card. Very strong. We've all been cryptic. Command that give the command. It is dreadful. Cryptic. Come on. That's something we're going to get to. What kind of touch on this now before we talk about like the individual cards later on. But, cryptic command for me does feel a bit more deck specific. And that, I mean, it needs to be a slow attack. Like, it's not isn't necessarily I need a blue control deck, or I need a white or a white blue control deck. It's more a either a control deck existing in your format or a slower deck existing something. That's fine, or is able to get to three blue pips for one, but it's fine, effectively passing with for matter. You need to be like. Like that is a definite for me. There's a definition of a slower deck on turn four passing and not doing any or as well it does like the. This also does have the secret deck of tapping down your opponent's board and then swinging through for the win or so very, very strong or bouncing that. Can you think like it's a very flexible card? The counterspell part is a part of this card, but it's not like I because this more mana is more flexible. It can do other things, but I think it gets it's added to cubes because it is a counterspell first and foremost. Yeah for sure. And it is a very strong one. I think the the biggest thing for me is just I want to have like around 13 blue surfaces in my deck before I really want to put Cryptic Command at 1212 fish maybe, not saying I haven't done some devious cryptic commands with a lot less than that, but, but to be really happy about it, you need a lot of the, But if you get those, it's such a it's such a flexible spell, you know, like, for most people, the most like, frequently used modes is like dismiss, fight, counter spell, draw a card. But, it's the ability to bounce like a bounce of any permanent value. You can bounce like a planeswalker if you don't have enough way to deal with them. I can throw on the way back down. You can even bounce. That land is sometimes surprisingly good. Yeah, and tapping down left team can be huge, right? And just giving you that extra turn can be fairly powerful. So, Yeah, I love Cryptic Command. It is a deck building challenge because, like, it's it's not that unusual to that there will be no one at the table heavy blue enough to use to command, but if someone can use it. Well, it's very, very a similar sort of spell. Next in Mystic Conference is another very powerful, but also a bit more chunkier on the manor. This is three blue blue instant two three. With this you can choose the same mode more than once. Target spell. And this is control a base three. Return me to to his own his hand or draw a card. So this is really how you five manor draw three cards? It happens, but very rarely. Normally you are effectively manor leaking something or maybe Double Manor leaking something and getting an additional paper value. On top of that, maybe you are countering the spell and returning a creature to a something like that. Sometimes you can do all three and that's awesome. Or you can counter a spell and draw two cards, but it's normally they just. Why this card is good is because it's a it's yes, expensive, but you are getting the counter and some additional tempo value on top of that. So you're drawing some cards as well as countering that spell or your bouncing that other big threat to the hand and countering is about that kind of stuff like this. Again, this was under control because normally you just bouncing three things through the hand. You want them to, you want them to put their mana into something. So you get the tempo blow out of you wrecking their mana for a turn, and then get the additional value of drawing cards or bouncing something as well. That's kind of generally where messy confluence kind of stuff and similar to Cryptic Command. Again, it doesn't need to go in a slightly slower deck because it is five manor. Yeah for sure. I think I'm much happier of taking something like Mystic Confer leave just because it's easier to cast color wise. So it like I have confidence for like most of my blue decks and top to use Mystic Confluence. And I yeah, it's just that flexibility that it provides, you know, like, yeah, most of the time you want to use for can spell mode, but for a tyke, though, a lot of games where bounce free creatures is really good for will be spots where you just draw free cards. This has, this is just like when you if you can make five mana, this is going to do something very impactful to your game, you know, and at the time when it's, you don't need to be bouncing creatures like counts. Your spells for two is just savage, you know? Yeah. Love mystic. Fun. Happy to take it early and ice cubes and, Yeah, it's it's expensive, but it really pays you all. And then as we're going up the Manor Valley, we probably have the biggest of the counterspell we're going to be talking about. And also the one with the highest potential blow out, a sublime epiphany for blue. Blue instant. Choose one or more count. Target spell, count the target activated or triggered. Ability return target known land permanent to his own. His hand credit token. That's a copy of target, which you control or target. Player draws a card so it's one or more so you can do all of those. So this card is an insane blow out. If you can get like normally you can get at least 3 or 4 of these. So count to talking spell return an online parameters and is doable. Create a token. All you need is a thing and drawing a card that is a lot. That is a lot of value for six mana I believe I've definitely got oh by I've completed the trifecta. Yeah, this card sick. If you if you get to Lambda, it's, it's fairly powerful. It is one of those cards where, it does get worse when they know you have it in your deck because it's so much smarter. It can be quite telegraphed. Five, six, six. Is that. Yeah. If you think holding up double blue is a tell. Yeah. It's a bit of a tap. But yeah, I mean when you, when you land this card, it can do some very sad stuff. Combo to call out as well with Torrential Hulk. Oh love that. Yeah. Yeah. Because you, Yeah. As well as getting all you have a value and create a token that's a copy of Torrential Hulk. And then the torrential gale clashes when you transfer, get hold flashes back to sublime effect, which makes another torrential cat Hulk and, then flash it back. Something else. Yeah. So it's, Yeah, that goes pretty harsh. It's also just, very powerful card. So it's, I know, I know, I said I liked Mystic Confluence a lot. Six is kind of pushing it and a lot of kids think is like, yes, you have to be for like, a hard control that, you could try and vamp into this, but is this. But generally you want your vamp target speed, you know, like, proactive, right? So yeah, but not one for, like, for super fast, high power level cubes. But like anything below that, I think this is very cool. Exactly. I'm kind of like the bucket that we're working kind of it's more I think the first category is more like if you saw them in any cube, I think, fine, whereas these are a bit more like like, like if I saw me personally in like York, for example, I might think that might be a bit slow unless there is the torrential Hulk way of cheating. It is. Yeah. While all of these I think are powerful and can have their place, they are a bit more specific in where you're put. So like, yeah, the, the, the cheaper ones are more if you want to interact early, the more expensive ones are if that slower deck exists. That's why this section isn't as much in every cube. I think we should touch on next items. Counter spells that I feel powerful cubes only the first two are probably ones that people are shouting at their opponents in platform. Like why have we not touched on the, and that's force of will and force of negation. So let's talk about force of will first. Sorry, Bowser. Well, is five mana. For an instant you may pay one life and exit a blue card from your hand rather than pay for a wills mana cost. Counter target spell and force of negation is one blue blue for an instant. If it's not your turn, you might exile a blue card from your hand rather than pay. This spells mana cost. Count the target non creature spell. If that spell is counted this way, exile it instead of putting it into its own as graveyard. So I'm going to make a hot take. James. These are not good magic cards. This is a hot take. These are not good magic card. These are unnecessary magic cards. Two for one. And yourself is not like the basic fundamentals. Like. Like if you've ever listened to like limited resources, two for one and yourself is never the position you want to be in. But sometimes you have to do it, otherwise you lose the game. These cards are unnecessary in powerful environments because they allow you to interact with your opponent either on turn one or when you have no mana. Basically the same thing. Basically. Basically, they they let you interact with your opponent when you have no manner so, so similar to like days, for example, of like there is the possibility of the gotcha, like you're tapped out. Haha. You didn't see the thought of will coming, etc. but there's also just the necessity of like because like in most powerful in like the powerful cubes, you can like you can go land Lotus mints combo and the game's over. Like these spells let you interact in those super fast environments and and again like like I know they all played in every format where they are legal. And I know that they are very, very strong magic cards, but they are played because they are unnecessary, not because they are good. James thought, I understand what you're saying. I'll also say that I think in Power Cube false, as well as the best counter spell in magic. I don't think it's close. And the reason for that is that the so sure that sometimes you get in for a crazy turn on the Black Lotus, and it's great for. But the thing that comes up more commonly for me is because like the three and four drops are so impactful now that the turn where you've us all feel free to jump and then fall so well, your opponent's free drop. That's such a huge swing. But that can often it's it's so hard for them to come back from that, you know, that that can so frequently be the swing man's game, like, you, you know, you play your mind skin to play, try and kill it. You fall. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that. That's just the game, right? And, I think it's become a lot more powerful. A lot more powerful in those cubes because the power level of that used to be, we used to have to pay 605 for those fat knight, and now we play 3 or 4. So we we we, we don't always have the ability to like up for the permission of, of the, the previous, even fearful mana spells where like, I have a coalition relic like a coalition of Alec doesn't end the game. The treetops now end the game. And, and so force of will is like, just when you're slinging those haymakers, like, force of will breaks that in a wave. And no, if a cop does, it's not that. That's right. Yeah. It still allows you to unlike the other counter spells where you have to pause your game plan to stop their game plan, this lets you continue your game plan and stop them doing their game plan as well. Basically, you're not just like, yeah, it's all just because the worst thing with the Counterspell is they don't play anything. You leave up mana for a counterspell and they don't do anything, or that you don't have an instant to do on your turn. So that where it's sort of, well, the opportunity cost is all you need is a blue card in your hand, for example. Yeah, for sure, for sure. But you make a good point about, like normally when we say a card is only five because it would be completely busted and all the other cubes, that's not really the case with lots of wealth like if you put I've definitely like, played pop a cube. So I don't think force of Will would be a good card if I put it in there because of the, like, all the threats are so mopey. I've never not left you one on yourself, however. Right is. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess it's as intended and that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly like you put force of will. Thank you. Love like limited draft environment and it wouldn't be that good like nice and fast to start to flooding yourself off. But when you achieve that shit up the power level, they very rarely are. So you need a cause like that. Force of negation kind of can do some of the same things when it works, but it's way more narrow. And the thing where it doesn't work on your turn is actually huge. Yeah. It means it doesn't protect your fat, like it's a card I will play in my controlling food expo. Will not take it that highly. Whereas as far as possible, like, I'm happy first picking and going into blue for it, you know. All right. Fine. I'm happy to admit that this is vintage and legacy staple might still get magic or might not be a bad card, but I didn't think possible. Being good was a controversial statement that I got to get those clicks, though. Somehow James got to get that. Okay. Yeah. If you go on to YouTube for V version of this, yeah. I think you'll find yourself. Well, there's a bad magic card with a shocked face as my thumbnail. I think we have a new title of the episode, maybe. No. Okay, there is one other one I want to touch on. Which which, to be fair, I, I guess I've always considered to be the most powerful counterspell. And that partly because it's not, I don't I sometimes it's not actually run because it is too powerful potentially. And that's mana drain. This is blue blue count counter target spell. As we get of the next main phase, add an amount of colorless mana equal to that spells mana boy. If you want a tempo swing, this is back breaking. This is an incredibly strong magic card. And yeah, yeah, I have definitely vintage SKUs where this hasn't been run because it's been considered too. This is like channel or like contract from below or something like that. It's just it's just too kind of like out of the realm of like all the initiative. It will be a better way to describe this. It's kind of like two swingy and back breaking sometimes. Like, I don't know if vintage YouTube is still like that. James, you you do play a lot more of the middle of it just gives an idea. But kind of like, getting the mana feeling the amount of investment on top of stopping that card is just extremely powerful. Kind of like, what's your thoughts on on managing James? Oh yeah. I mean, it's a boss of card. Like Counterspell is a card. We're already very happy. And you're getting as a complete free fall off of that. You're getting a bunch of mana for free on your next set. Like the games where it works and you like ten mana drain battery each, and then cast sex shop like, six drops of busted. That game is over. I will say I suspect it is in those super high power level cubes. Probably a little bit less good than it used to be, because I can say that. Yeah, yeah, partly because the cost there's so much like downward pressure on the curves. You don't drain very expensive stuff that much. And quite often when you do get the monitoring off, you don't have anything to spend for minimum. Yeah. Like, because you're just not playing that many four and five drops. Right. And often the, a lot of like really good feedback for drops. Like, those cards are quite pip intensive and, like, this isn't to say it's not busted. It is busted. I think it's like slightly less busted for it has been at certain points past. Yeah. That's fair. Maybe the times I'm referring to are a bit longer away than I thought they were back on a times when, like when you would like hard casting a round dynamo. That kind of thing. Right? Exactly. Man is very near, dudes, I can't live very tense, and and I'm very happy about it. Yeah, but I mean, yeah. No, it's I mean, it's still crack. Because the thing is, even if you're not using it to, like, play some sex shop like you, man, frame that thing and then you like, play your free top on time fall. But then you still have to be more mana to play it other for you talk about. Yeah, it's actually still crazy because you didn't give up anything for that matter, right? Counterspell is just a card you would put in your deck anyway, I like it. I can definitely see it not being as strong as it used to be, but I still think this is one that should only be played empowered. Yes I yeah I sure yeah, like like even in like like I don't like I, I think Jane is too powerful for my own power advantage even in theory. Like the I cup like a step or two below. And I think there'd be be like the pack one pick one quite easily in that environment. Yes for sure I've. Yeah I think it'd be very, very powerful. And it's and it's also it's just like so punishing. It's, you know, it's, like the spell it already of being great against expensive card when your opponent just has all this action manner and the did. Yeah. It's really brutal. Yeah. I wouldn't put it in anything except for like, basically power to you. It's it's not a train. An uncommon James I think it was. Yeah. Jesus Christ. So this really falls into peasant. You have all the best counter spells, including apparently management. You have forcible count. Yeah. That looks the legends version looks to be an uncommon love that okay. Not wild. So yeah, they're kind of like the those are the most powerful ones. Let's talk about some honorable mentions now. Like, these are just some cool counter spells that I think we want to touch and just talk about a little bit, just because they have places in queues, but specifically in certain environments like, stun scalding I think is a very solid one that seen quite a bit of play since it's released as a single. Blue. Can't we just spell with power toughness two or less? This one could for me could almost be in the power. Only one, because I feel that effectively this is here to counter like you, rather than your super cheap, efficient threats. Like I like your super cheap and super cheap efficient. Like, I was just talking about the curve coming down like this is there to get rid of though, so like, I don't run this in any of my cubes, but like, this is run in the metro vintage cube, I believe right now, and I'm assuming it is specifically for those, like account as a cameo account as most white one drops their counters, most, I mean red one and two drops. So I'm assuming that's kind of why stand scolding has seen quite a bit of play. Like like my guys. I don't think Stones Holdings one for more midrange or more budget cubes do the powers more. Kind of like three man. So your things are a bit slower, I think. Sounds gardening does get a bit lower, but like the basically. Yeah, and faster cubes I think since Golden is a very solid magic card. Yeah. I think it's it's pretty strong. It's very matchup dependent. The thing is, it like you play against the glass with, with your blue deck and this is your best card. If you play against another blue deck and it's going to be one of your best, like, this is nothing I get. It's not like Re-Animator or anything. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, for all, like, occasion, you know, you play against the artifact that can use, like, this can siphon as a some, Oh, that's how I actually do like that. Yeah. I'm like, bro, I'll just. I'll just be all too expensive for each other. This does counter like, even, like countering a solid huge game. Ooh, grief as well. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. But, Yeah, I think it and it's keep and, it, it does add some nice very quick start, but and, and it's a stupid thing if like, it's so counter a surprising amount of free drops and countering a free drop full on them. That's really good. But yeah, it does just have for being very matchup dependent issue. It's I generally I will start it but bottom out very aggressive sort of thing that's there. And we've had that's a nice level for the counters. But like I don't want my counterspell to sit in the sideboard and then come in. I want them to be in the main deck and then come out. Yeah. Another one that kind of I think is a bit more. Yeah, it's still still an honorable mention, but I think is a bit more. But basically because because it's a gold slot is invert polarity. Blue, blue red instant choose target spell then flip a coin. If you win the flip, gain control of that spell, you might choose new targets for it. If you lose a flip count of that spell. This is a very strong magic. Like effectively, this is kind of a fixed mana drain because you don't get the mana, but you get you potentially could get the spell, but the base level is still a counterspell. That is a high potential upside. And the flaw is is a three mana counterspell, admittedly over two colors. Why? I think this is an honorable mention. No one for every cube is because it takes up a gold slot in a cube. Gold slots are like. It's harder for me to justify putting a counterspell in a go, putting a generic card in a gold slot basically. Yeah, I think it's I think it's a powerful card. I put it in my power, Keith, and then took it out just, I sort of like. So I didn't like the play pattern very much. I'm not. I think this is maybe just something, but, for me, it's like kind of an unsatisfying way for a game to end where, because it's such a she by what it was. Exactly what I feel like. Like where you counter a planeswalker and then, like, you can have a planeswalker like that. That's just kind of a game a lot of time. Right? And, I kind of feel like magic is high variance, which is fine. I think that's a good thing about the game, but we don't need to like, artificially added more variants with stuff like this to be. And I just found that a bit like underwhelming. When the games ended up, it was like, oh, we're having a cool game and we like to it that that was kind of the whole thing. But maybe that might just be a me thing. I don't no, no, no, I do say that like I think I've given out quite recently about comments up on this podcast. It's a similar feeling, if that. Yeah, I guess it, it doesn't, it doesn't feel, if that makes sense. Exactly, exactly. It's, Yeah, it feels like it's like anticlimactic. That's what happens. That's that. I do think from a power level point of view, it isn't a consideration because it is quite strong. But yeah, I do see from a gameplay point of view that it could just be a bit miserable. Is that. Yeah. No power level wise. It's that, another of well, I want to touch on just because I think it's mostly I think these cards. Cool. But it does have a place in more slower cubes. And this is an example of a bow for, for something like my treat yourself, something like the, like the chromatic cube or the Live the dream. Kind of like the, the cubes where you are trying to do bigger things and like, stuff like manly would be the best card in that, in that because everyone's going to do things like this card, I think is part of it has kind of always and is a great example of a budget card that I think is really cool in slow environments, and that's rewind. I love rewind two blue blue for interrupt on the version I'm looking at is an instant counter target spell on tap up to for lamp. I think this is a great card. It's really good. It's really solid. Okay, now it is for mana and that is the card showing its age a little bit, but it's a hard counter and it if you're on a deck with other instance or other flash targets, stuff like that, being able to again interrupt your opponent, stop their plan. But had the managed to continue your game plan is very strong. It does need those abilities to kind of like real. It is better if you can use the mana because it just being a full amount of counterspell. If you have anything to do, cool it. A full amount of counterspell. All right, not great, but yeah, but if you have stuff like that, I think it is quite good. And yeah, especially in those more slow environments, it is it can often be like the right level of intrigue basically, or the right level of speed for some environments. Yeah, I think everyone's fairly cool. It's it's cool to have a mission that's basically a build around, right? Like, yeah, you can't put the wind in your deck if you don't have a bunch of, for instance, because and it's actually just a full amount of counterspell if you have a, for instance, it's often at zero. Man, I can't spell, then fairly powerful. Yeah. Very like for you, but I'm assuming you want to do a few. I'd like the sort of easiest way to make it work is like instant speed cards, right? You, you rewind, fair play and mentor a bunch of Cosmo and step is a great feeling. And moving it over a little bit. We have a creature now that I think is very strong. It's kind of it's one that was a staple in cubes for quite a long time. It's probably power corrupts out of the most powerful cubes, but it's Glenna Landry arc mage. Three in a blue, two to reach a fairy wizard with flying, and it has a single blue sacrifice going. Link arcs mage counter target non creature spell, but also has persist. So you get to do that twice. Glen Landry is a very cool, very annoying card. It it's a hard counter, but it is a bit more specific. Like, I think it's way this is countering their removal, but like, it's not so much like this. Not countering creatures isn't the end of the world, but it will kind of help blip your opponents answers to your thing. So it's a good roadblock if you're trying to build a game plan and you need that bit of protection because like, like most counter spells, we had counter spells to our deck generically because we're trying to interact with our opponents and the protection is there, but it's not often like if you're a combo deck, it can be the main reason you're running Counter Magic, but it's not always the main reason why you're running immediately. I kind of does feel a bit more protection in the it is a body they have to kill twice to get rid of. There is some nice play patterns. They're kind of like, okay, I'll attack it or I'll attack. Maybe they'll block that kind of stuff. There is some nice play patterns there. What do you think of Glen James? Yeah, the cons really powerful in the right match up. It's honestly like one of the most demoralizing cards sometimes. Like when your, when, when it cancels everything in your deck and they managed to you know, use something and then they stick this and you're like I'm going to have to come to like, soft spells. Add to that, you know, because they're not just going to snap it off on your condo, right? Like they get a wave, save it for high impact stuff. It's not that much mana sleeve up. And it's not even like you can get out of it by exiling us or something. Like if you find a soul spouse shares that they're just panther souls spouses and it still a back. Yeah. Because like I said, that it's, the reason you don't see it in a lot of super powerful, cuz now is that it did phase cubes is just more creature based than they used to be. Right. And this is a lot of mana to spend on something. And then they just tap out for questing beasts and laugh at your family, and none of that matters. Yeah. And in the Void Cube, it's great if, like the regular pilot cube, it's not that cube anymore. No, definitely. But like I said, I think in slower cubes or cubes where, like, the power level is from a few years ago, I think I might just yeah, it's a solid include, but yeah, not their power level. But I think it definitely belongs on ramen and does kind of bring us on to kind of like most of the ones we have talked about. For me, anyway, for me to play for them to get, I do like ones that have the ability to counter any spell. There is a subset of counter spells that we should touch on, which I like things like negate swan song and spell Pierce. These are varying levels of counters or hard or soft counters OHA counters, but effectively they counter non creature spells rather than countering all spells. I don't know how you feel about these games. I for me these fall into being like we we touched on earlier where like stone scolding starts in your deck and then goes to the sideboard. For me these feel a bit more sideboard into the deck if you know you're going to have three hits because like in theory, like like you mentioned, decks are getting more creature heavy, like negate swan songs of like the spells. But so are we gonna. Sorry for those unaware, it's one on a blue instant counter target language spell hard counter for negative spells. It has the nice. It has the one on the blue. It's not double blue. So we like that from a casting point of view, but it doesn't. It's maybe going to hit a quarter of our opponent's deck, maybe less. And then spell Pierce is a single blue for an instant counter target. Non creature spell analysis controller pays two at. James, how do you feel about this subset of counter spells? The ones that can only do non creature spells anyway, I quite like spell pass actually. I think it's pretty strong. Like, it's probably, I think for me, in a lot of kids it's going to be the best of the one minute counters. Like I like it more often. Boss by Con Scott Stone sculpting most of the time because, two is enough, but you can quite reliably leave it up against for like that. Can you will you will get most of what they have to live for. A lot of the game is very cheap to leave up, and, it can protect your creatures from the move or disrupt. Five disrupt some of their threats and it because it's only for one manor, it's just it's not as expensive to leave up as a, as like a negate. Right? Negate. I think is too weak. I'd rather pay. Like, if you're paying two mana, you can get a melody or something like I think, which is just better. Because it will miss, swan song for me, I think sucks because it hits the body. Yeah. It gets a narrower selection of stuff and it gives them the body. Oh, yes. But the spell pass I do like just because the tempo swing when it works out back. And I think it works enough of a time. I know that's the I guess this is kind of similar to putting like, a green protection spell. Like, you will probably still run it in your deck if you're plan is to land a creature. Is that fair? Yeah. And it hits like, you know, it hits a Planeswalker Walker's hit. A card for spells, even stuff like, you know, there's either creatures. They're creatures that aren't features, you know, like your fables and your. Yes. Like, yes, that sort of nonsense. Fey. Yeah, I, I just find that it does enough, to, to merit spot. Not like, it's not like premium premium, but I think it's quite good. No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I would still like early I would take like a monthly but I yeah I prefer it's a very, sort of very conditional one mana counter. No I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Cool. So yeah. So as we kind of touch on this out that is not, exhaustive breakdown of every single, counterspell ever to be printed, but I think it does touch on the majority of ones that you are likely to see in the vast majority of. Q again, that list will be down in the show notes below if you want to take it and apply it to your own cubes. I think if you choose a selection of the ones that we've gone through today, I think you will have a very solid start and a very solid base for the counter spells in your cubes. And hopefully the conversation with me give you a really well one way to include them and to like why they're good and kind of like how you can get the most out of them, basically. All right. Awesome. Yeah, I think that's where we're going to leave it for today. James, pleasure. And thank you very much. I conversation really enjoy talking about my most hated form of cards is the counterspell, but I thought it was a good conversation to have. And, I'm sure you will learn to love them at some point. You know, one day, James, one day we'll see how it goes. But yeah. All right. Now that's going to bring our episode to an end. James. Pleasure. Thank you very much, man. It's a pleasure. Marvelous. That's going to do it for today. Do make sure the podcast review, tell a friend all that good stuff. It is all greatly appreciated. Until next time. It's goodbye from me, and it's goodbye from James. And we'll see you all soon. Goodbye.