Talking about Universes Beyond - #63

In this episode we're taking a break from our normal content, to have a chat about how we feel about Universes Beyond, and how its become so engrained in Magic the Gathering.

00:04:56 - The history of UB
00:21:38 - 2026 Schedule
00:23:56 - UB's effect on the Magic IP
00:38:19 - The Costs of UB
00:44:11 - Has it been badly managed?
00:48:19 - So many releases
00:53:40 - Suprise Quiz
01:02:10 - Is it the choice of IP's?
01:09:00 - How is UB changing how we interact with Magic?

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Chapters

• 5:29 The history of UB
• 22:11 2026 Schedule
• 24:29 UB's effect on the Magic IP
• 38:52 The Costs of UB
• 44:44 Has it been badly managed?
• 48:52 So many releases
• 54:13 Suprise Quiz
• 1:02:43 Is it the choice of IP's?
• 1:09:33 How is UB changing how we interact with Magic?

Transcript

0:36

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Powerful Nothing and Magic The Gathering Cube podcast. I'm your host, Dan, and as always, I'm joined by James. James, how are you doing? Are you well? I'm well I'm well. We have, second consecutive exciting guests on this podcast. We do coming live all the way from upstairs. For me, it is the wonderful Sahar. Mahathi. Sahar, how are you? Oh, boy. It's like, it's just like having a chat in the pub with my two favorite people. Yes. For folks who don't know who I am, somebody, I, a magic player. You know, advocate of a title format. And, also the, the wife of that, but that is like third on this list. Like, I love my husband so much more. So we do so much more than just the wife. So, I am I am so much more than wifey. But, yeah, I what about magic gathering on the internet as well? But for the eternal format. But I love cubing and limited and all that other stuff also. But I'm not going to talk about that. About, something very, hot topic. Yeah. This is actually the most, one of the most topical things I think we've done. And it's just it's basically just we wanted to have a quick chat about universes beyond because there's a swathe of new updates that came out, magic on Atlanta. That's kind of a lot of people have been talking about it. This wasn't really meant to be like us. Like, this isn't us piling on. This is just us giving our opinions on it. And like, I think I want to set the scene of what we're doing today. So like firstly, normally on this show we do try to be quite positive. Like the normal stance is if we don't like something, we just don't bother talking about it. We aren't people who could like hype ourselves up, but like induce rage for clicks. That's not really kind of where we are. And like, we in episodes, we will make reference to things we don't like. Kind of like in our set review for Spider-Man, we touched on how through the in past is kind of a bit stupid, but normally even in sets we don't like, we can find things that we do. That's one of the joys of Q but again, with this swathe of stuff that come out in magical land, it's kind of it's really brought universes to beyond, to the and has made it quite a conversation point in the community. And we kind of wanted to have, spin on it. This will be a bit of a one off in theory. Like we will go back to our regularly scheduled positive, looking for the best in things content in the future. Kind of treat this like a Simpsons Treehouse of Horror. It's like, this is not canon as well. I will, I will just, as much as like Daniel saying it's negative, I think that a lot of what we'll end up talking about is constructive criticism and a critique on what is happening, rather than just piling on because, when this episode does come out, in the last, like week or so, there's been a lot of discourse about this like topic, but good and bad. There's been some stuff that's come viral from members of the community, using language that's probably not ideal when it comes to the topic of, you know, the player base universes beyond that kind of stuff. And I think for us, certainly, you know, talking about universes beyond as like a critique rather than just kind of going, this all sucks. I think kind of constrained the conversation in a way that's at least constructive, rather than us just going, oh my God, I like this. Of course, there's stuff where we're like, oh, this doesn't fit. Well, this isn't the vibe. Like, you know, this stuff where I'm just like, you know what? This isn't really I don't really see this in here, but if it brings more people to the game, I love, I mean, it's cool cards for cube, it's cool cards for the format we all like to play. And yeah, maybe the limited environments. Fun. Like a whole nother. I mean, Lord rings is a good example of like limited vibe. There's lots of fun on the cards. Were bangers like Slam Dunk basically. Yeah, for sure. I think we're we're definitely not here to to moan about universes beyond for now. Like we can, we can go to a pub and do that. We don't need to, you know. But yeah, I think hopefully we have, we can have a bit more of a constructive discussion with some forms that are going on. Give me a hell. Yeah, exactly. And, and just the last thing I want to say is like like when we are talking, like if we, when we're talking today, if we don't like something, that is fine. If we talk about some something that we don't like, that someone does like, that should not mean that you don't like it. Everyone is allowed to like what they like. But then the flip side of that is also people are allowed to not what they're not like, what they don't like, but be respectful. At the end of the day, it's only magic if there are bigger things in the world to worry about. But I wanted to get that kind of out of the way before we kind of, kicked off. But yeah. So let's start. So I guess for me, kind of like, let's go back to the start of things. For me, universe is beyond just kind of fallen into like three distinct periods. I kind of want to get the two of you opinions on these, as I kind of as a bit of background to kind of the context, I kind of get to where we are today, and I think where the frustrations have kind of come from because like phase one, the quick marvel of Secret layers was kind of like they started in of, sorry, phase one of the universe is beyond, it's like 2020 to 2022, where we mainly got universes beyond through things like secret layers. So we had the very first was like The Walking Dead meets Stranger Things. Then we had Fortnite, and then we had Streetfighter, like when, like we were all playing magic back then. What was everyone's initial thoughts on these? Like these outside IP's coming into magic? I thought, right, I, I didn't buy any of them. None of them really appealed to me for like they didn't have any negative effects on me either. And it was cool to see people who were invested in recipes getting psyched about the cards. So yeah, more power to them. I think there was some like controversy about for watching that stuff because. So I kind of unique or whatever. I understand why people are annoyed about it. Yeah. I did didn't have a massive effect on me as a magic player. I think it was a reasonable debate to have, but it wasn't something that massively bothered me at the time. Yeah, I think with those like and so all but Fortnite was mechanically unique, but they all got within universes, printings and standards that I think they were all kind of like in Australia versions within like a year or so. And that was all fine. But my bigger issue with like at the time was I with The Walking Dead was that it was only available in North America. It was very early on in secret layer and subsequently fix that. And that has made things a bit better. But that was one issue with Walking Dead was that you just couldn't buy it anywhere in the world that wasn't North America, but I think also those early duels, I think they were experimenting. I remember when the announcement came because I remember, I remember the lady who was doing, one of the Super League, ended up going to Wizards as, like one of their, like, licensing, branding, partnership people. I remember that announcement. And like, during Covid and then the announcement that no universes beyond was going to be a thing. Well, that's kind of cool bringing in IPS and from different people. So I think it was honestly just an experiment to see how much of the, how lucrative it was. And obviously we'll get to it kind of later on. But I do also want to shout out the reason, magic goldfish video about, like, wizards and that very, very keen interest in Wizards of the coast as a way to, generally make the line go up very much like go up and just versus, be honest, 100%. I, I yeah, a contributing factor, to the line go up because as much as magic has been lucrative, in recent years that the, the number gets larger every year it's souls line go up. So I think that's the frustration. There has to be a bursting point, when it comes in these early stages, especially good experiment. It was a bit the implementation was probably not ideal. But coolcuttz technically, in this time as well, I think adventures in the Forgotten Realms has been retconned as Universe is Beyond. I don't believe it was at the time. I mean, that's all the same house. It's technically universes beyond now. That's why. I mean, it's improved my stand. Don't worry about it. But then we kind of move on to phase two of C of Universes Beyond, and it's gone to 2022 to the start of this year. And that's when Universes Beyond starts becoming a thing in eternal formats. So yes, there's more secret layers. There's also the Warhammer 40 K commander decks. Thanks all that. Come on. The decks. The doctor who came on the decks, this is touched on those initially. That's kind of like like as commander product. I thought they all were awesome. Yeah, I like, I like I don't think I like I, I bought the 48 decks, I bought a bunch of singles from the fallout adulthood. It's huge. But for me that was like the perfect level because if you like them, awesome. You could get them. But if you didn't, if you weren't a fan, it wasn't in your face. Like like, James, is that fair? Like, what did you think of the kind of the commander decks as a way of presenting universes beyond to people? Yeah, I feel very, very cool because it's very much a in thing. Right? It's, if you if you're serious about Warhammer, then you go and buy for Warhammer decks if you liked. So you can buy the top two decks. But if you're, if, they're to appeal to you, they're not going to be cropping up in your, in your magic experience fairly. I, I don't really buy it when people it's like, oh, my machine is ruined because you played a doctor who kind of against me, not Game of Command, that I think that's absolute nonsense. You can all shut up. But but when it becomes part of, like, modern vibe, then it's not opt in anymore, because, one thing's the best card in modern. If you want to play modern, you're playing with the wandering eye. It's, it's a little bit less. Less optional, I guess. Which is I and that, I think, is where they get into the stage if like, there are some doubt, like if it's not vibing with you, then you feel it a lot better, right? Which I think is fine. I think play it didn't feel as jarring for a lot of people with a lot of things, specifically because a lot of, you know, magic for gathering, flavor wise, is kind of arguably at the forefront anyway. Most fantasy from the past, well, 80 years has been in some way influenced by it. So yeah, for sure, for sure. Whereas compare that to, I think another thing that came out in, in this period, which you mentioned, Doctor Who, I think that was our first set of just like, what Axis of Magic cards, you know, like food driving car. And is it not a card, right. Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, again, these were just commanded act, so it didn't really get a very bother anyone that much, but, it is like, oh, every time I remember thinking, that's weird, seeing other magic cards, you know, that is that is like, slightly jarring, you know. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, the Lord of rings like, as much as it was so like instrumental into, like modern onwards into like modern, like 70s, things like that with the one ring of classical monsters, like, it's like, and, it's the banger was that it was all about. It was. Oh, you said amazingly designed set. You know for sure. I love the I also the controversy around Lord of the rings of. I remember like a bunch of people were like, why is Aragorn not like in the movie? And I was like, the artist can have the interpretation of what Aragorn looks like, like, I mean, very specifically were doing that, though. Yes. Not the film like, as they probably should have done. Like that's exactly. I can't look how I've someone complete Aragorn. You know, the Aragorn looks like Aragorn. They didn't have Viggo Mortensen money, I think is the real. Yeah. Yeah. I love the little rings. I thought it was a slam dunk. As a as a big set. They were awesome. But I the big thing with this with this period, though, is that they were eternal formats legal. So yeah. So Lord of the rings came and was modern legal. Some guys like the One Ring and Orchestra was really shook up that format, but also all of the the decks as well as Lord of the rings were also legacy because of legal and legacy and vintage. Let's like as a legacy vintage player like how was that? Because obviously there was also a big delay in just availability of cards, like like the 40 Codex only became legal and might go like a year ago, like, yeah, it wasn't too bad for Warhammer, because it wasn't that much to kind of filtrate it in. But for Lord of the rings, we get full frame links, which at the time, the Bank of America, basically gave a bunch of the older control decks a win condition that wasn't in the angels, which was great. And also gave, like, the combo decks, like something like breech or something. Another alternative when condition. That wasn't just brain freezing them. You could just make a million tokens, all that paradox and make a bunch of mana, make a full, fair, and just make a bunch of things and say, what is your that? So I think it definitely impacted it for sure. And again, wondering and all which by masters are basically synonymous with the eternal formats right now. Both legacy and vintage in different ways. Because wondering is a messed up matter card and you know, I don't worry about, okay, this is also a messed up magic lot. So I think, but at the same time, like, correct me if I'm wrong was not on what was what was a year after this was like, yeah, okay. I got I lot in the grand scheme of things like like like like Lord of the rings was a modern Horizon's power level. I don't know, it was like it was for modern, like like like a few of the cards in it with modern horizons. Pablo. But but the majority set wasn't. I feel like it was like commander level, commander level, like there's only really been a handful of cards. Like wondering what spymasters do I should halfling for Troller of Doom. Obviously I'm thinking about troll all the revealed like, but it's kind of kind of just you could have printed them in modern horizons and they would have still been good or in any other set. I only think like one ring was the one that was like, really like egregious in that way. But again, like the set was a banger, but I think outside of, like, maybe like a dozen cards, I think it was like, you know, the rest of the five. Yeah, I agree with that. I think the main thing with this period of time is that it's it's still not in like the entry level sets. So this is modern legal now. It's not it's when we move into the start of this year. So 2025 onwards when Universes Beyond is now moved into standard. And also specifically there's now six standard sets a year, but this year that will change, and half of the half of half of the sets this year have you having universes beyond. So so it's like Spider-Man. As I say, they started with Final Fantasy early in the year. We're currently just off of the Spider-Man release, and then we have Avatar The Last Airbender at the end of this year, making up half the magic sets being universes beyond in standard. Yeah. And then next year, this is what was announced. At the weekend is that next year they added an additional set. There's seven sets next year as well in universe and for a universes beyond. James, from your point of view, how has universes beyond in standard top level? What's been the general effect of that for you? For me personally, and I wonder if this is like, I'm not saying, like, these sets are bad. It's this is a matter of taste, right? It's. But nothing else. But they are not to my taste for sets, for certainly Spider-Man. So it's not like I was looking at these cards and I'm now I'm normally someone who I'll be like the first week after a set is out, I will be honoring the draft to get if it is remotely craftable, you know, and, looking at these Spider-Man cards like, I don't know if this is just I've not time I've moved the IP, but it also just really didn't feel like there was much of a narrative have it honestly felt more like an advert to me than anything else, like it was listening. It wasn't like really a narrative about Spider-Man. It was just like, here's a bunch of stuff from this IP, but we're trying to sell. You come back in two months time, we'll sell you a different IP that you also don't care about. Like, yeah, it it really wasn't doing it for me. And like I think, but, as some point I'm just going, this is just going to be me figuring out a way to maybe engage with magic slightly differently, to not be as bothered by this because, you know, it's been since they started making a million commander decks ever. Yeah, I sort have been fine not being invested in all the products for Wizard make. Right. I don't think anyone can pay attention to all of the products wizards make at this point. I have previously also paid attention to every footstep, and I think that is just something that is slightly going to change for me. And that's okay. I think that's still going to make a bunch of sets which do look awesome. And I am going to put my energy towards them and if that's look like the Spider-Man's that looks to me, then I'm, I'm, you know, I'll look at it for cube. I'll, CFO any cool cube factors, we'll talk about with cue cards on this podcast? But I'm probably not like jumping in and drafting a bunch of them. And I will say I'm speaking somewhat in a position of privilege here because I don't really play like standard and pioneer and stuff, so I'm not really like forced to, in fact, with this, the cards if, if I don't want to like I will say I used to dabble in those formats. I this is probably likely to make me less likely to dip in to standard from time to time. Because you have, I think over the course of me doing it for me. But, those are standard is also unbelievably huge with this unbelievably huge and it's six sets a year. Seven sets a year seems absolutely outrageous. The thing to keep up with, if you are trying to do it on paper, I, I imagine for most people this makes standard pretty much an online only thing. Which kind of sucks. And you know where standard was when I saw it playing. Certainly it was, you know, the default format that you'd show path and, and then there would be, that be fair. A lot of people playing standard. I mean, but I mean, that hasn't been the case for a long time. So, I think this is maybe, like the nail in the coffin of pay for standard that, yeah. I think it's more of an issue for standard players, but from my point of view, I'm just gonna pick for sets I do want to engage with and spend time on them. You know, I will add on the standard point about. So obviously Final Fantasy best selling set of all time. Let's not be about the version was incredible. It you went to if you went to Magical Devices, you were making money through, you know, you basically walked in and made money with all the progress. However, visibility. Hell of a magic card. Really good. It basically broke standard. I think it's probably the most broken standard I've seen in the ten plus years I've played the game. Like like James, like what you playing during? Did you were you round out drowsy winter? Like I think I was just like like the start of it. Yeah, yeah yeah. Oh cozy. Winter is like the closest thing I can think of to a archetype being that dominant. And even then, I think outdoorsy winter wasn't even as much as, like the 40, you know, 35. I mean, that's modern VI and modern gets broken all the time. But I mean, like standard, I think has been very focused, like, but when, when I did, I was like, okay, standard that was one that's, that's a lot about oh, that was a memory gone far. Gone. I honestly, I don't know that Vivi being printed in the form it was, was because it, it was a universal to be able to maybe like I think since they started going down the whole route of fire design, it's, standard is going to have some fun. Yeah, right. Up the beanstalk is a hell of a truck. Yeah. I think the universe is beyond argument with that is more. They may like. They may have delayed any openings while the set was still the current set. I think that's more likely to affect it. Like, I think we definitely saw that with, Lord of the rings. They definitely delayed banning that. I think while it was still the hot, basically, like it was quite obvious that some guys need to be banned, but I but let's keep the ball rolling. Specifically. So I'm just going to go over the sets that have been announced for next year. I think that does add also some context to where we are with this conversation, though. I thought the year low in eclipsed trading January 23rd actually quite high for this set. Like like so I'm starting to like ideally hype for this. But don't worry the moment it comes out, the moment it comes out somewhat sometime between February and March, there will be an unannounced universe to be on set, most likely Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Yeah, most likely to be Ninja Turtles. I just want all I want from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is like a decent shredder. I watched the cartoons as a kid. I just want a decent shredder. I think after the Spider-Man set, the main thing we want is more than 180 card set. But anyway, let let me just run through this. So so so so remember January 23rd Lohan some time in between. February and March, teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, probably in April. Secrets of Strix Haven. So that's three sets in four months. That is one in June. We have Marvel superheroes. This is looking to be cramming all the Marvel characters in that we haven't seen previously, and maybe some reprints of the Commando ones. That's in June and August. We have The Hobbit. We're going back to middle Earth, which I think I'm quite hyped for, October. We have Reality Fracture, which is the end of the current main storyline. So the thing so things going on right now in the main set and then in November, which is one month later, we have Star Trek. I think one of those is a come on the product. Everything I've just listed is all standard. Some will have the decks, but those are all standard. I71 of them. It's good to know there's some will have come on the decks. But yeah, it's specifically the start of the year. It really does feel like they've crammed on it. But anyway, that that release happened at, Atlanta. Atlanta. And that's kind of the thing that's kicked off a lot of those conversations because it was already kind of. But for a lot of people, magic not being magic for half of it, that was this year was already tough enough. And then next year we already know. Now it is going to be more more of magic is not going to be in universe. Yeah, it's very sad. So with that being said, from my point of view anyway, it does seem like the magic IP have been put on the backburner. We will touch on some of the things that have been announced, which they've said that, they are doing to bring the magic IP back. But I think one of my and I'd like to open on this, but one of my main issues with magic over the last couple of years is it's not just that the universes beyond has been coming in and doing and doing all these like random IPS it feels like. But but the actual magic IP itself has been getting less focus. One of the reasons I got into magic was because I thought it was cool at the cores intrigued me like, what is Lana? What? All this kind of stuff. But like for every talk here or Edge of Eternities, we have like magic goes cowboy, magic goes racing magic of Stranger Things or magic. Does Harry Potter like a bunch of the sets we've had recently? Feels like they were kind of. They could have been an IP if they got a license for it. You see what I mean? Like it's it's a lot is a Call of Mana was basically Ravenclaw. Ravenclaw, Columbus like I mean, I loved and I loved bird as a color of mother, but like you could have just said that it was just like with like, I don't mind doing a, like, like a sort of dramatic top down design. But we've also known that, like, what's powerful is these like planes that like hold stuff like, and yes, we go to new planes or like the challenge. We also have and I think we've spoken about this privately, but it's just we don't have much time on these planes. So when we do go back to the planes that have had time and effort on them, like kid like, we're going back to law with even strict saving, I'll even give strict saving. I really enjoyed strict saving. There's like this sort of like school sort of world. It was it was like really well balanced as a limit before as a bang or a limited format like, oh, give me an environmental sciences life. And I'm not, I'm happy. Jinx. What was the what was the like? Blue green deck that you could play that was like a, that was like the if you, you make some fractals and then it was like, it got you. It was like basically the break green deck was a banger of a that one gets. Well, yeah. Better than we had quantum crap. Just like you played splash. Red flag for summary. Come on. Oh, like Gideon. Oh, that was such a fun draft environment. So I really hope that you can, you know, was fun. Like, I really like the. I like the plain looks of Octavius. I think also, I like that because I think we, you know, there's there's time to spend there, but like, because it's one set you, it's like, oh, we went to went to space. Oh, cool. Yeah. I've heard of we've just we've, we've gone here like yeah I do I do think it was kind of a shame. But when I made this decision, right, to move away from blocks in terms of you wouldn't draft, 2 or 3 sets together, I think that was a great choice because, the single set draft environments, for me, it's always better for me and multiple set draft environments. I don't think if I necessarily had to stop spending multiple sets on the same plane, you know, and it it did seem like from that point on, it was very hard for them to really build a narrative, you know, like, I'm saying, this is someone who, especially at that time, like I was focusing myself, my magic energy on being competitive. I wasn't particularly, paying attention to the storyline, but even without paying attention, I knew what was going on in the storyline. Right? Like in Shadow over in a Strat blocks, you couldn't help but notice that there was a mysterious thing and do a look at, there's an owl jersey and that Vale Chelsea all showed up and like, without paying attention, I, I, I understood that narrative. Right. And if you look at the layout itself and it's basically from when they start stop blocks, right. And like, you know like time what, what what happened on time? I think it's the same thing. So it's, teaser. It's looking for a McGuffin. That's kind of the gist. I believe my handsome leave my handsome man out of the sees. He's just a bit misunderstood. He's got one. He's got one hand. He's. He's in these trying times. Let me go. Yeah, I know, I think part of it is that just there is just is too much other noise like I. Yeah, I have known. Right. Yeah. I think I'm like and I'm very much the same as AG James, but I would have known what the storyline was. I have no idea what the current magic storyline was and, and someone who speaks about magic once a week, if not more, you would assume that should be something that like. But we are all quite switched on magic. Like like we are in franchise players. Yes. What the hell is going on with the magic storyline right now? This is a loot. What's up? What is a what is a flame Luton magical gathering? Well, the thing is, the basis of course, did not have rights to speak, cuz choose sample loot. I think it's what I would saying the last time for me I got really invested and it is sort of like recent is when we went back to salon with like sexy Days and like the story with him and Voracek, and like, which is kind of bled into all the other stories of I'm an excellent. So second time was that. But when did. Yeah, basically when Jason Braska became. No. Yeah. Because in Jason's heart, okay, I'm just Jason for, no, because I think he got. Yeah. Because he got basically off the, admittedly, I don't remember the story. Was that sexy pirate was it because the rescue, wasn't it? Yeah. Vesta was on. That was that was first Zealand. That was probably like eight years ago. Watching. No. But it's like related. But the story is Veronica and Jason so yeah. Yeah it's kind of bleeding and like you know they kept going but like like the I love rescue and Jason thing the keep. For what it's worth I think for asking Jace a couple goals and I think the great you know, a sexy, sexy lady with a sexy the Pirate Prince. I mean, I think that's one thread they've managed to keep going, but one of the things that I've been frustrated by with the story is that you have all this history and like, I'm not going to stand here and say that the magic lore from the mid 90s is peak. Some of it is ballocks, but like, there's so much that you can pull from. I got to like one of the things that frustrates me, it's kind of like, like the best comparison I can give. And I've lent some of this to you, James. And I talked to death about it. Two of these are is Warhammer lore. In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, but Games Workshop do such a better job with the lore, and it's frustrating because it's some it's what magic could have done. Like like in magic, the big background storyline point everything comes from it's the brothers lore that's like the start of everything, the tale of there. And make sure when we when we went back to retell that a couple of years ago, we just gave us like eight web stories or something like that, like really short to tell this whole story in Warhammer to the big background event of the 41st millennium that, is the Horror Games Workshop published 65 books over 18 years, including numerous New York Times bestsellers. And then from this they have made models, they've made whole games, they have made characters that people care about that then sell more product to get people into the game, and then they can. Like if they write a book about a character that's never been seen before, people like, there's a chance people might like that character, and then they can start making product about that character. Magic has never done that. I've never like, like like I would push back on that because Games Workshop were using their books as marketing tools. Magic doesn't need lore. Does it? Need lore to sell parts? It's convenient, but it don't need it. I'm saying it's like Games Workshop doesn't need to do it either. They could just make a good board game that people like, in the same way that magic makes a good board game, etc. other people like Warhammer, apart from the five people that play well, I we are not. We are not getting the war. We are keeping the Warhammer fans online. Okay? We love them in this. The well and sometimes the the I don't care about this, I gotta go. I think Warhammer is amazing. I was literally painting some Bloodborne earlier so I do not. I think this is and this all needs to be five minutes needs to go like weeping about Warhammer and the comparison to magic is the. I do think though like yes, maybe Games Workshop had found a model that works. But I think that as a a tool for promoting the game because what it's magic, it's a tool, but it's also it's its own product. Like wizards could make money by doing this. I feel like, and and the other difference as well is that, Games Workshop employ someone whose job it is to keep track of the lore. Wizards fired that person who did that? Yes, they did. They now work something. And I work somewhere else. So they did hire someone to to manage multiversal marketing. But they got rid of the person who managed the internal lore of Magic The Gathering. That is the difference. And that's why I'm frustrated, because I am not saying that I want I. Yeah, it's good. I would love it if magic I get this all has the caveat that it is good, but I would love magic to make a bunch of books about random characters on magic planes, but if it's good, people will read it and then they can make cards about it. Like that is the way that is a way of doing it. And that's just I'm not in marketing. That is a way of doing it. My problem is they have done none of that. They just given us the bare minimum. Like like I come on to some other bits that they've announced that are coming. So in so coming up soon, they have said there going to be a Netflix cartoon. There will be a book actually if actual published book for strip seven and a comic book, they've done comic books before. They have my my real I am giving, I am giving the full spectrum of. I am saying that this is what has been announced. I do not think that these projects will be enough like Netflix is. Finally, it's time is for canceling its animations after one season. I think they will give up on all of these very quickly. My worry is that effectively, and to bring it back to universes beyond my worry, is that they basically realize that they don't need to try. They just put magic characters in this setting off the air, and the other half of the year they pay someone to take a license. And that's my worry with magic. Is that from an IP point of view, I think it's getting. I think the internal stuff is getting lazy, and I think the external stuff is like flavor of the week, basically whatever IP they can get, that's my worry about it. So let's I want to bring this back to the magic of this video which you can link in the show, notes Daniel. But are you surprised it makes it like the fact is the Final Fantasy was a best selling set of all time. It all was a second set, then seven sets of all time. Lord of the rings like it makes money like I look. I would love magic. Likely to be amazing, but they've tried to make a Netflix like a movie for 10,000 years. And yes, I would like someone to have continuity of law, and I think this is where sometimes I get a little frustrated because what is magic? Is magic a game system? Is it a brand in its own right, or is it like turning into like monopoly? What? You can just put it something on top and then do that and like, you know, and you know, the amount of people go, oh, you know, like was it like be sold off or like whatever. I'm like, yeah. Like Hasbro had was as opposed to like 25 but 20 plus years now, I think for the most part it's safe. And you know, the, you know, if money, if the profits are going up and they're making money from these IPS, like, I don't think it's necessarily get lazy. It's just like, oh, let's just keep, you know, keep the keep going while it's good, like you did a video, then you're going to bring up your video about Pokemon. Like it's very like the similar charities that all like you can be like, look, this is this is not uncommon. Well, that video was specifically about how wizards ran Pokemon and my issues with it, but that's but yeah, I think you're making a good point. So how about for the video you mentioned the Safford olive. I think the the, the shocking thing of that video for me was the, he went through the, quasi this election has five. And he said, like over 90% of Hasbro's profit comes specifically from magic. And that's why. Okay. Yeah. Which is insane because they have like a huge range of stuff and none of the rest of it is profitable. Essentially, it's all being on by magic. That means that from that point of view, they have no they have to milk magic as hard as they possibly can. It's fine. They don't really have any other choices. They, the thing is, CEOs that just buy what the, what their share prices ultimately value and, and that doesn't really care about the long term, that kind of cares about like 1 to 2 quarterly results. And and that's it really, a series of Hasbro doesn't actually, like, you'd like to hope fair thinking a little bit about the long term health of magic, but they're not like that. That's not really the thing that is, is motivating them. You know, for people that I mean, I know the people at Wizards, of course, absolutely do care 100% magic. I've no doubt about that. But at the end of the day, I say, you're gonna have to do what I tell them to do. And Hasbro figured out for if they put more universe beyond us, then they will make more money. Like. And I think we have already moved on to crisis. Yep. You know, Final Fantasy sold a ridiculous amount of products and made from a ton of money. But they'll be thinking, I bet we could have charged even more for that. You know? Yeah, that does bring us onto cost, because one of the things everyone will have noticed about universe has been is that as a set like, oh, as sets universe is beyond, more expensive, they are priced as premium products. They are more in line with more horizons levels. So they are more expensive. This does kind of pile on to a bunch of, issues that players have quite rightly raised with the way magic has gone recently, because we've already have shrinkflation in magic. They have taken a card out of the booster pack, they take in six booster packs out of booster boxes. They raise the mSRP of all, sets off the foundations, and while booster packs, while play PCs are saying the same, everything else is going up in price with low end. So command the decks bundles, fancy plastic bags. They're all going up in price with low end. And what I feel that they have learned is with the universes beyond, they realize that people will pay more for magic. So it's not. So it's the issue is that we don't have universes beyond as a premium product. And then regular magic has a normal price. They're just going to raise the price like they realize people will spend more. So the floor is going to go up. So regular magic is just going to continue to get more expensive. Like do you like that like James. Do you think that's a fair statement or. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. You know, we we can all get mad about it. Like I'm not happy about it, but at the end of the day, they're gonna continue to do that until people stop paying for it. And, you know, that I'm not, like, personally mad at them about it. Like, that's that job five five. They're literally legally bound to maximize profits that come from a five as that. That is entirely all they have to do. I think at some point they will hit that limit. I suspect they're getting pretty high, actually, with the Spider-Man set, because the reaction has been very negative. So and we're talking earlier about the, you know, the amount of releases, but my base point is I own massively, but from my own personal point of view, I'm really happy because I'm just going to engage with the fans. I want to engage with BI, but that is with a caveat for Fe. Actually able to maintain a good level of quality in the sets of that producing. And I certainly seems like they have not invested more resources in their development team to produce more sets. They are trying to do more with a as the same or less resources. And I think with the Spider-Man set that really showed, I think that that feels the you're meant to be able to draft it in this full player draft, and then the draft just basically doesn't work like there's there's meant to be five color paths, but that is ridiculously weak. So there's actually three color paths you can draft in the whole format, like it's not a single draft format. Like I can see all the, a lot of, content creator people you see around biped like, kind of just not even paying attention to Spider-Man a week after for release. Right? They've all just, like, gone back to playing cube or whatever. I mean, the last protocol should have been. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the last protocol should have been Spider-Man. But at it, they played at Giants because they realized that it was such a bad draft environment. Well, so it was just exactly. It was just going to be like like it wasn't built for a player draft and like, well, it wasn't really built. The draft was the issue. It was a it was a 100 cards that they added a bunch of comments to. We'll get Mario's design article like some point like usually end of year early next year when he does his like state of the nation about what went well, what didn't. And I think it would be very interesting as a game designer, not even just as like, you know, the head, you know, one of the heads of game design. But like as a game designer, to see, like behind the curtain a little bit because I suspect if, if, if we, if we I think we all kind of agree that magic life cycle is about two, 18 months, two years like games. That's what they said from conception of a set to release is about is about two years is about two years. So let's let you know if they're built, if they're doing Spider-Man. It was 2523. And they saw probably a year into. So what we know from now is that Spider-Man was going to be like a Assassin's Creed style. Exactly. And then that did awfully. So they decided to cram in a bunch of comics. Yeah. And you can tell that the pressure that games like Play Design have and my worry with that is that the set that they just rushed to announce in Q1 of next year, in between two other sets, is going to be a similar thing? Yeah, I do want to keep the ball rolling, but one honestly, my hottest take on the whole episode is that is that Universe Is Beyond has got me to not trust Mario because I feel he has to defend it too much. But let's be fair, my one pushback on that is that yes, he might have to, but I think as a game designer, it's interesting of him trying to at least, you know, play in this space and try and figure out what mechanically can work. And thematically you can push magic. But there's obviously, as we know, noticed because Hasbro has got this kind of cash cow, like there is a top down thing that he probably has to work for. Again, big corporate does a lot of everything and and it's for a lot of sets. They have really nailed the top down design. I think Spider-Man is the first one way. Just like why like so many cars just don't make sense. Like what they are has no relation to what they are linked mechanically, which is not been like a lot of other sets, but it's just gonna bring us on to like, so with the universe again, it does feel just things have just got way more complicated. Not only do we have more sets being crammed into a short and time frame, but we have. We now have to deal with external parties. We have to deal with other companies and other licenses. That's how you end up with things like, 40 K only being like, no, we have to buy singles at 40 K, and they're not being any reprints of that whole set up at any point. And also the bigger issue of 3D, involves not all of Spider-Man not being printed on any digital format. And no Marvel set in the future will be printed on a on a digital format. They've confirmed that. So it's such a wild are you surprised? Like I questioned what? Like, I know I questioned the the licensing agreement process and that sounds a bit corporate, but like, how did magic, how did Magic and Hasbro think this was going to go? Like, were you so set that you were going to make that much money from pay per play that like digital play just didn't factor into it? Like, I mean, let's go. I. Really I assumed like I assume they, I assume that they got the license for one and like because like we had the announcements like, like randomly like 3 or 4 months ago that, that that this was happening. My is they only really found out then that that was when it was going to happen exists like this is why I'm so surprised. Like again Disney big. But there is an amount of money that makes it work for both parties. That is basically, I think that I think they got the license to to design the game, and they just assumed it was going to be fine. But then someone either at Marvel or Disney was like, definitely at Disney, we're not doing this or oh, you wanted this is this much that would be my get. And James, what do you think? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah I mean, it's wild, but you signed the agreement without having that conversation, right? But yeah, I mean, we, you know, we spoke about that very well. Yeah. I can guarantee mother was, like, not happy with the way this Spider-Man set came into existence in my life. I like, and this is the sort of stuff which historically doesn't really happen at that company. Like it has tended to be very much, like pretty long development pipeline. And if stuff doesn't change that much. But I mean, obviously like cards change, but, the sets themselves, there's, there's a plan a long way in the future. Right. And I think pretty clearly what has happened to have is the people that has been like five weeks. We have realized a new way to spend money is, invest beyond it didn't work when we did it. And the weird Assassin's Creed seven card pieces, whatever they were. If I said this set now has to be a standard set and therefore has to be on a, on a arena. Because it wouldn't really have mattered by if it was a, if it wasn't, arena like if their cards were like, they have Magic online, then you could like no one would really care in that scenario, right? About the, the digital stuff. But, with it being on a VNA and being a main set, massive deal and, yeah, like, I think, you know, in normal circumstances, this isn't how this products would have come to market, right? I think they would have they would have gone back to the drawing board, said. Right. If we were going to do a Spider-Man set, we want to do it, the right way. We want to come out with quality products. And if that means it gets pushed down the line a bit, then it gets pushed down the line because, you know, went down the line. But as you say, line is scope now. So, so and, and that's why we have a site we have right. Yeah. Keeping the ball rolling, kind of like part of it does also feel just like the number of releases. So in general, there's too much magic. Like in general, there is too many things coming out. Does the fact that half of it was universes beyond this year, and four of it ran over half next year? For me personally like that, that is just to just the raw numbers makes me like it doesn't. It wouldn't matter what the sets are. Again, we're going to come on to like our opinions on the IPS they've chosen or they've got license as well. But just the raw numbers for me in this, like my initial thought is like, that doesn't feel great, like there's less magic in my like, I think that the premise is that there's now less magic in my magic than there is magic. Or something like the magic wand. James, what's your thoughts on that? From my point of view, I don't know if there is too much with the caveat, but if they can actually put the resources in, make all these sets good. Then sure, I'd probably prefer the old way where there were just for magic sets a year, but I'd actually rather we have free and universal sets and for universes beyond sets. Then we had, say, two in universal sets and two universes beyond sets. Because in that scenario, if I did like for Universe Beyond Sets, then I only got to play two sets next. Yeah, right. And that would suck. That's true. That's like I. Father, you still make more sets and I will draft, and I'll just ignore the ones I weigh. And, what I think I will say, but I'm making some assumptions that because, I don't like it may well be that a bunch of these sets kind of kind of suck because they're trying to get the development team to build too much stuff, and they feel that this fifth set does, and if I was a standard player or like a pioneer player at that time, feel very definitely slightly annoyed versus that coming out every six weeks. And, that that would be very frustrating when you're trying to actually, get from that game, right? Yeah. So that's what I for constructs that I've played recently been female ten and ten sets. So I'm not feeling personally affected by far I guess. I mean so having I think a bunch I think it's weird. I think if you're kind of on the sort of pro end of it, I think it doesn't matter what the cards are, you will just get the cards. You find the best deck. Yes, there's a lot more stuff, but like it does all eventually just shake out. That being said, I still think seven sets is a lot. The cadence of it is kind of odd because it feels like it's spread out towards the latter half of the year, but like the first half, the first quarter, well, I they put in three sets in four months and then we've got like a bit of a gap. It sort of feels like. So spoiler seasons are going to sort of seasons are going to start there. It's going to keep coming. It's going to be constant hype for the entire year. I will say it does feel akin and I would I you know, if there are other TCG players, if there are other TCG players who also I would love, you know, in the comments and find out the cadence of like other TCG digital decisions, Half Stones, a half Stone or other TGS that have like digital play elements to them. Is the cadence this regular? Because for them it's like okay, half done. As an example, I would I would wager, whether the cadence of sets is all like teams, like tactics or some and something of that ilk where there's regular metagame shifts. Is it this regular? Because if it is, then we're getting to the cadence. The other two is also familiar too. I'm just saying I'll take Stone as an example. But I would wonder if that's the cadence, because then that's fine. The thing is though, like all those games, online, you know, that's one, right? You can have it being much more like to learn an online context, like it's very different thing if you're trying to play like a local star, if you're trying to get out going ice marks or whatever. Because, yes, for real money down for cards, not fakes, it's still money. And then you have to, like, wait for the cards to show up. And then when you know, a new set comes out and the that you're playing in the last set is no longer good, you don't get, you know, at face cards in for some coins, the wild cards or whatever. Like it's a whole logistics thing if you want to sell them and buy some new cards for the deck for you. Now, want to play in this new game. And then by the time you've done all that, you probably have time to play like 1 or 2 of events. And then there's going to be a new set coming out like, it's I think for like standards specifically, which does change in a very significant way with like those set for versus, I think it does kind of some place paper something on this this year that was a seven week gap between Final Fantasy and Edge opportunities. And like that generally could be a four week gap next year between end and real. Maybe Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Like that's kind of wild. On this topic, I want to test how well you two have been keeping up with the universes beyond. So I prepared a quiz. Yes, I love quizzes. Quiz. I didn't know you were not a zero points. Yes, points. Me prizes, whoever I'll be. Whoever wins a booster back of a universe is that of your choice. I was going to say I cannot be Spider-Man of your choice. But it will be a play boosted because I do not have the money. No. Collectively, I find if I. If we don't have the money to buy a Final Fantasy, I like to purchase, Jesus Christ. All right, so I want yes or no from both of you. I want to tell me if these are either magic cards or things that have appeared on magic cards because of universes beyond. Okay and The Power of Five. What you mean by the second thing? These. So some of it might be people, or though people or things. So the first question, I would like to know if the Staten Island Ferry has appeared on a magic. Yes, I know it's true. Correct. It was passenger ferry on the Spider-Man said, well done. Number two, the revolver from the board game Cluedo. Oh, I want to say yes, but I don't. Yes, I think this might be a bluff. I'm to say no. I'm going to say yes. The answer is no. In the Cluedo set, we did not get a full, complete cycle of these. We only got rope, knife, lead pipe, candlestick and leaf. How did you get a gun on? Yes, you can give us a gun. New powers. All right, all right. I'm just wondering. The shark from jaws. Oh, they've just released the doing a jaws secret. He's going to be on it. Yes, I'm going to keep saying yes. If that sounds totally plausible, I'll say. Yeah, the answer is yes. There is a jaws from the movie jaws Secret Layer coming out. I remember I remember this from the announcement. All right. Our next one, Crash Bandicoot. No. And I wish that was the one I actually would like. You know, you are competing against James. Yeah. You've got done. Well. Hey, you could totally go on that. Yeah. No, I think I've not seen it anyway, so I just, I just, yeah, it's, I think, yeah, I think you. So while there is a while, there is multiple, PlayStation secret layers coming out. Crash Bandicoot is currently not spoiled. All right, our next one. And again, we see it's a competition. You're playing for a booster pack. Yeah, I'm sure James the actor Winona Ryder. What she been in? That would be on, on a magic card. I'm not. Say no. I'm going to say no as well. That is correct. Winona did not. They did not get her license for the Stranger Things. A secret like, every other major actor was. Okay, okay. Hugh Grant, the actor, Hugh Grant, got that? Oh, you got to have, like, the Richard Curtis Spell album called The Secret Love. Oh, you got specifically the actor. The British actor. Is there a magic card that has the actor, Hugh Grant likeness? I want to say no. I can't think of one, but no, the answer is yes. What do you. Grant appears as forge. Never win to charlatan. From the D&D film Secret Layer. Hey. Also available is Michelle Rodriguez pissed off at Christopher Pyne and the other ensemble? Oh, yeah, I forgot they made the. It's not like it is that it's like a San Diego Comic-Con thing. Was it like there was in The Sacred Secret? You could buy it, I think. Oh, Mr. Hardcore, Doge. Never. Winter charlatan. I've never. I've never had stuff, but I'm glad there is. There it is. She can't thank God number seven, Chucky from the Child's Play franchise. Because I don't know who that is. I'm saying yes. The answer is yes. There was a Chucky fan. Yes. Chucky is the doll. The doll that kills people from the horror films. Yeah. When, when came. That was the whole, like, horror time. So Chucky got it. That was. That was kind of cool. Not to me. I don't like Chucky, but I. The ball from Blood Bowl. Yeah, I bet they did that. No, no, the answer is yes. You, falling behind? Was it in the closet in The Secret Life? Well, it wasn't the secret. I think we have one in the house. Actually, I thought it was a come on the part. I thought they didn't do the blond, the product that this is mine. Well, we have no clue why there had to go more. And then a bonus question. Okay. All right. The actor Neil Patrick. Neil. Patrick Harris, known for, is known for his roles as Doogie Howser, M.D., and star of how I Met Your Mother. Yes. Yeah, I've probably have been you in a bunch of nonsense. Correct. He was the Celestial Toymaker, part of the Doctor Who Christmas secret layer. I generally thought he was love. Another franchise, but that also makes sense. And then our last one. Well, I last one of this round. There is a bonus question. Oh, no, I mean, our level now. No idea. I'm. You gonna do this? We don't do it. I was gonna fight the fan. Okay, so James is what I had to do. Okay, so. And this is all right. Winner, winner. Chicken dinner from Pubg. Yes, yes. The answer is no. We have had Fortnite. We have had Fortnite and Magic, but no Pubg. It's up to you. The thing I want you to trust in it. So this question be two points. So if I win I would be jinx. I argue we can make it a 2.0, a half a point, half a point. No. Oh, right. Okay. The last question of the quiz, how many playable characters that have appeared in the game Nintendo Smash Brothers Ultimate on now magic cards? Bonus points if you can name. I certainly can't name them. Can I get them up? No, no you can't. No no no, I step away from the keyboard. I need to keep changes. I did. These are only characters that have appeared on magic cards. Like I will say that like I'm gonna say 17, 17. Quite high jinks. I'm worried that it's like go low, but I thought I wanted to do like, I will say that there has not been a Nintendo secret layer as of yet. Oh it's gone, I'm gonna say, think I'm going nuts on. I think if, let's say 50 does closest to you both quite optimistic. Magic has been quite good. The answer is only five. Oh. You. Yeah. So the answers were so Sonic, Sephiroth, cloud, Ryu, and Ken are all Smash Bros. Characters have all appeared as magical kids? I'm sure there is room for Steve and Alex from Minecraft, Joker, and all of the Marvel heroes. Oh well, why? They're not going to snake one for me to get a solid yet, but hey ho, I would be. I wouldn't be surprised if Konami haven't been at least in the I. I wouldn't be surprised if we just haven't spoken to Konami about like, I'm just so there wasn't a solid there wasn't a solid artist. I was going on a tangent player. But anyway, I'm going to call it a draw. You can buy each other off the back. Yeah. Okay. I'll. Lovely back. I will pay respects for you both. I'll buy you both the person who's back for putting up with that bullshit. Thank you very loving. James. Happy birthday. But, yeah, so on the topic of IP, I think that does kind of not raise a point, but kind of like, do you do you think the issue is that we haven't, like some of the IPS as much as some of the early ones? Because like, I think the general consensus from for us anyway, was Lord of the rings. Yeah, that we were on board with that. We all kind of like Lord of the rings. This year has been a bit harder because. For me anyway, it's they are the releases are speeding up and I'm a lot more hot and cold on them. Like I'm either like next year I'm going to be all in for The Hobbit and then probably out of the rest of them, like, I love Star Trek, but I think that might be a that beyond, as it were. Like like, what I feel like I'm sound like like, do you think that's fair? Is it like like like is it, is it just the IP they chosen or is it that combined with its IP combined I think there's definitely the, you know, not every, you know, going to and not everyone's got like every IP. I get that. But they've also identified IPS are very popular in, in the, in the kind of wider because like they and not every you know, it's like, you know, Murrow's joke is that you like everything, but also that is true. But that with the cadence and it looks like it's just constantly ramping up, it means that you can't even spend time on the stuff you do like, because. But the next new thing is coming. So you're in just in this perpetual hype train unit, actually, time to enjoy the thing. So I think that there's for sure. Yeah, there's actually an argument that some of the IPS just aren't for us. And that's okay. Again, I've said this from the beginning that if it brings more people to the game, I love incredible. Just keep the scalpers out, which is kind of like, I don't want it to turn into Pokemon where it gets so high. You get so hyped. People get into it more, the price is skyrocket. And then we have like the Pokemon problem, where a set gets bought out by like a bunch of people like Costco or something, like the bunch of videos and stuff like that. But I think it's a it is a multifaceted thing. But yes, I definitely think the IP, the IP choices probably factor in because some people for like it's not magic. Like like I was talking, I was on I was like, if it's if I don't think it's magic and I'm like, I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment, but I do. It has been a little jarring at times, like saying things, saying places I've been to or things I've been on or things I've eaten like, no, I mean, just like saying like a cinema hotdog. Yeah. Or camera, is it that that has felt slightly more jarring to me. Kind of. And James, what do you think? Like like like like like do you feel if they if every IP was a slam dunk for you, you would be more on board with it or. Yeah. Is there an element of just like like just so much of it is tricky. I mean, top of things to me, it's not just about like me not having a connection with the IP is that I think a lot of these IP family lends so well to being a metric that, like if I had the Doctor Who one. Right. And I love Doctor Who is the kid? Like I've not once in a while, but like, you know, Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant, era of Doctor Who was great. I thought, but I didn't like that. I didn't really want to get those command attacks. So I kind of felt very looked kind of weird. Just magic cards. I kind of think magic does need to keep some sort of connection for that high fantasy to really work in the way it's designed at the moment. Like, I find it kind of odd, but it's just like, oh, like this dude selling a hot dog. So one, two. And then at the this other guy is a bit of, yeah, so he's a three face or something like, I think that stuff really works very well. And a lot of the IPS kind of have that, right, because there just aren't that many which lend themselves really well to magic, like they kind of did the easiest one. Right? It was a lot of things, that was kind of obvious, like Final Fantasy, I think kind of work. Like I was, I had a big connection to, but I it worked for that, and I think it looked better. Spider-Man like for Marvel stuff for me mostly, to be honest. And yeah, like a lot of the, you know, a lot of the stuff I might do, you have a, I know, like June say, I'm sure tune is on someone's list somewhere I liked. I love those books, but I wouldn't be that hyped about a tune set. You know, I buy, I buy a fancy on a farm, so I'll leave it at that. I imagine. Yeah. So, no, I don't think it is just. But we are connected to these some of these IPS. I think it is that some IPS do not lend themselves that well to being full magic sets. Like I think makes secret. Last but not by all means. Because, you know, then you can just have like ten cards and pick out for, like stuff that you need quite a lot of depth to make a whole magic set. And I think having 40 Spider-Man in this set kind of demonstrates that it isn't, you know. Yeah, yeah. I think that something I've kind of come round on, I think this is where my brain is. I kind of that if you are doing something that isn't mechanically unique, like reprints or like different cards. So the Junji Ito's the I made an artist that came into the whatever the, you know, collectives that have come in and done all the artist collections and stuff, those kind of ones as a secret layer. Go to fortnight. Nicolo, I don't SpongeBob flights from the office right from the office. The office is quite funny actually, but all those solutely fine because you can buy the the version of the card. Actually, I I'd agree with that. Yeah, we can have UK versus USA commander dual decks. Like it was going to be a lot smaller of a deck. One of the IPS I think is really one of the apps I think is super interesting. If they ever get it in something like WWE, because that to me I would, I would, but a but not the heartbeat, but it would be so jarring. Yeah, I would buy that too, but it would be jarring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'd be all for like all the supplemental stuff that isn't unique, like knock yourself out, right? Because it's going to be like 90% of people won't care and it won't affect them in any way. And the 10% of people who really want that thing are going to have a great time, as there's no love downside. No. Exactly. I do kind of want to kind of start bringing things to an end there. Like I think from my end, the, I do kind of feel that when I was going through the timeline of things, I kind of like when it was just secret layers, buying whatever when it was come on the decks. For me personally, I felt that was a bit more of the sweet spot just because there was more the option to pick and choose. Like I am fully on board with do you like what you like and you don't have to like? If you like something? And then you're not forced to like something. The I think the thing for me is that as things have moved into standard and it's just become more it's just become more, more, more of what magic is like. Magic is now half and half, you know, like magic is half universes beyond half universes. Then that's where I think me, me personally, and I believe a lot of other in franchise players have had more of an issue with it. And like the way it's affected my relationship with magic is changing. Like, it's like, I also know I'm being a massive hypocrite because, like, I'm I've got you all on this podcast to complain about it, but I'm going to buy the hell out of the Iron Maiden secret layer because I think that's cool. And it's like, it's it's it's a I know it's it, it feels very tricky. And it's, it's we are just getting to a point where I, where like like where about you mentioned the Migros want to comment before of like idea of like not not everything is for everyone. You don't have to like. And I really feel that like effectively what's going to be happening is a lot of players are just going to be dipping in and out of magic a lot more. And it's basically it's will there be things that pull people back because, my best friend got into magic because of Lord of the rings, because he loves Lord of the rings, like, oh, this is cool. And but like the next year or like the year coming up that he's I'm speaking with him. It sounds like he's struggling to find anything to be excited by. So part of it with the investors beyond is will these new players they're trying to get stick around because like if you come in because you love Spider-Man, do you do you like the rest of the IP? He's like that kind of thing. Like like there's there's all these kind of questions for the future and kind of like, I think everyone's going to have to find their own way of dealing with it. It is also a bit like from my end, I like making cube content about some new magic cards, so that will continue for next year. As long as James will have me there. But like, yeah, kind of like, oh, 31st James. I'm like like, what's how do you feel like your relationship with magic is going to change over the next year or so, or in the future with the rise of universes beyond? Yeah, I think it already has changed a little bit, certainly the way I think. You know what? What I saw like, magic when throughout my time I've been playing magic for fans for that before my I've played for myself is is definitely boost to that. And, I haven't skipped many sets, but, I'm certainly skipping Spider-Man and, I think I, I'm going to be dipping in and out. Of that, that stuff. I mean, I'm still going to be playing magic, you know, I'm, I'm enjoying the modern moment. Played a little bit vintage recently. That has been fun. And, you know, I think I've, I've always been someone who's like, yeah, moves between formats a little bit. I think, I'm sure there's still going to be there's still going to be some magic I'm going to want to play next year. But I mean, I am playing a bit less. So that's and yeah, I'm not going to be like playing as fast as it comes out. I don't think I'm going to be playing because that appeals to me. And skipping one stone. And I'm kind of okay with that. As long as they make some, some sets that I do want to play, then then I'll be like, I'll be okay with that. I think. And and what about you? So hard. I know you mainly play eternal format, so, like, I know the main time you're interacting with universes beyond is if we got a prerelease or if, ran, or if a card randomly shows up and breaks a format that you play. But kind of like, like, do you still like talking about magic? You still interact with magic all the time. Like, like from your end. How how do you see your relationship with magic being with the rise of universes beyond? I also kind of similar to James. I think I'll dip in and out. I think the I think my position has shifted somewhat because to me, magic is not quite universe beyond the magic. Magic is more than universes beyond, to me, like it's the gathering reason why I have such amazing friends. So I'll still be engaged. And you know, if a card comes and breaks it, I'm kind of hoping it's going to be built for standard like design wise, but you're not going to get as many cards going into eternal format, like you're not going to have another one. They might reprint one ring, but there's not going to be a number one ring or a novel. I mean, all these small devices, but you get my point. Like, well, you know, we're not going to get that level has to go through standard fast. And I think that's a positive for like eternal format, but also, you know, similar to you sell it to both of you. With cube, we have to look at every set because we have to be like, oh, maybe there's something here. Did you have to do it? You never you can never just turn it off. But at least I can be like, oh, okay, cool. Let me look at the cards. But it's still the I still have to make that time to do it. I can't completely turn off. I was actually just look at what you guys are talking about. I try to look up a comment I found, about Atlanta and about what you said about acquisition of new players and people coming in and brought attention. I wonder when, you know, there was do the service post sets and there was you have like a lot of data about people coming in and going, I learned a lot of new players were there and they were excited and they were getting involved in magic in that way. So I think there is that I think it's just whether that acquisition probably cuz corporate takeovers often like turns into retention, whether these players stick around and are playing set after set off the set because at least the Final Fantasy I'd wager that people were more into collecting than into playing. My fear is that some of the IPS that have a very strong fan base, such as Marvel, you have more of the it being a collector piece rather than a play piece, and I think that is a depending on the IP. I think that that barometer gets shifted a lot more, because I, you know, especially with having, you know, at least with the, you know, the infinity Stone and that's literally the most expensive Spider-Man I've got about that. I hate that. I mean, I do too, you know, absolutely hate that. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Like that, you know, that's the most expensive thing. And even that's come down in price. So I think with my only real concern is going to be Marvel and how much it really is pushed down off road. Because I think they can't really go back and see that scene that, that how, you know, how not even bad Spider-Man is how many. It's not even it's bad. It's not like it's not like gatecrash or like, you know, the secondary, you know, well, you know, train, it's it's just a bit, it's a bit mid. It's not really it's kind of like it's not really a big set, but it's also not really an exclusive like come on the but like it's just it's just a bit myth. It's like the you know what. What you know the aftermath. It's basically an afterlife product that they had to make into a set. I will I will give props to play design for trying to at least, you know, design a way of playing like pick two. I we we've spoken about this. I want I appreciate the them comic them coming up with a way of making an unplayable set playable. Yeah. Possibly pick two. That seems like a totally reasonable fare to actually because. Yeah. So, you know, you can draft profile commander apart as fake as that as a again as a game design tool and a game design project. Incredible work. Play design. You did great. I think it might have I genuinely think I think it was, playing, the MTG Twitch. I think it might have been one of the, one of the, companions, actually, whether it was Jade or. Oh, I don't know which one I think I might have enjoyed in the popular game. I only stadia was talking about it on, the magic Twitch channel, but like, yeah, really cool idea as a way of, you know, let's, you know, reinventing draft is not the worst thing in the world to do. Like, you know, although it is kind of funny that they invented pick two draft underground, that, if you had eight people, then you wouldn't have enough color pass like and an investor. But then they somehow managed to build a set where only three color paths for to play ball. So I think we're still gonna have two people. They should have built a three color, a three player draft format, I guess. Yeah, exactly. They're nice, but yeah, I think that's where we're going to round it off. And I guess we should probably at least mention the fact that we are normally a cube podcast. Appreciate you everyone listening to this one. I guess the main, the saving grace is that one of the joys of cube is that we get to choose the cards that we play with. And never has that been more useful as us, as cube players, as a tool. The now, like, obviously if you play the mic go cube, you're going to be, basically playing. What is that? Same with the arena Cube, that kind of stuff. But if you're play group doesn't vibe with them or if you don't vibe with them and it's your cube, do what you want. Like you don't you don't have to run. These guys like like, I've definitely gone from playing them like to trying to keep up to date with all the new hotness to flopping like pack rats. Come back in my cube because I think it's cool. I'm more on that train now than I've ever been. I've just like playing the cards I like, and that is one of the joys of cube, I guess, is that that is how we can interact with magic. We if we don't like something, we don't have to interact with it as much. It doesn't have to affect the way we play as much. I will also say I am not surprised by the rising interest in like Time Capsule formats. That doesn't surprise me with the way everything's going. But, as we mentioned, James has been playing some pretty modern. I'm building an old board at cube, so yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, you know if he again magic is a game. Just magic is so much bigger then then this like they could stop printing magic tomorrow and, slot will still play Magic gathering like, you know, I mean, like, we'd still keep playing with, you know, we'd have new ways of playing and I think that, you know, magic is so I know we've been ranting about it, ranting or like we've been discussing universes feel, but fundamentally, this is also a bit of a it is a bit of a dub for magic in the sense that magic as a game system is so strong and so like concrete that it can. It's a gift and a curse because it can do that. It can hold these lips and, you know, make them mechanically work. And I do wonder if there is going to be a point where it really does fall flat on his face. But I also trust that it's it's a kind of a wild thing, because I also think magic is so good as a game system that I don't know how it, like, fall flat on the sides unless we have like, you know, Gatecrashed 2.0, as if there's multiple sets that are half baked, like, like I think that's basically really, really what it comes down to is if there's a, if if a bunch of the universe be on next year, oh, I know me. It's second. It's just a bunch of sets in general are half baked and rushed like Spider-Man. Then people won't buy it. People will stop playing. That will be the main thing that will happen. And like the the line goes down from everyone to Wizards is remember when it was as I'm assuming they hoping that Spider-Man is a one off in terms of half baked. I guess we will see it again. Again, I, I don't envy play design workload, let's put it that way. They are doing God's work. And again, this is not an it is is not a a rant at play design. They are good people doing good work. It's just the number has to keep going up. So and they're probably doing it as James hopefully, you know, more work, less resources, like everything else in, you know, the world we're in right now. So I think, you know, sometimes these things happen. It's just it happens a lot. And then the game as a whole in quality games. Is there anything else you want to add before we finish up? Yeah, I just wanted to say for, and Stanford, people have a really broad range of opinions about this. And if you are listening to this podcast, you're probably this is probably a hobby you care quite a lot about. I feel like we don't have, but probably most of our listeners, like, have played a decent chunk of magic in their lives. And that means that you have strong opinions and you care a lot. Just to say, like, do keep playing like you keep for the fame perspective. So, you know, like, figure out a way to engage. If you don't love the direction going, try and figure out a way to engage with magic when it's still fun for you and it's still figuring you happiness. If you want to, give some feedback to wizards and, like, absolutely do that, they do you. Yeah. A video of the online questionnaires go. I'm feeling one of those. Reach out on discord for all those good things to do. But you know, go ahead and, do it in a constructive way. Do it in a civil way. I see quite a lot of people online voting in a way, which is, it's not really helpful to anyone. And, you know, it, it's a matter of taste for people. If people have different tastes to you and they like feedback on that, that doesn't make them. I just I just like different things. Exactly. You know, that's like a lot of stuff going on in the world which people should be, which is worth getting very angry about. This probably isn't one of those things. You know, in the grand scheme of things. It'll be fine. We'll still keep playing magic. We'll have a good time. That's the thing that keeps me going is that magic is, you know, the most important of the, the the least important things. But also it is the thing that brings everybody together. It's the gathering. Hey, that's why we have this thing that we call magic. Because it's the gathering. We get to play games together and isn't that cool? And again, I'll keep saying it. If it brings people to my the game I love and they stick around, or if they don't, that's also fine. Like they just want to play for one. They can move on. But I think that people enjoy the game when they get to enjoy the game. I love is in that pool. So, you know, let them in, make them feel welcome. Don't be it. Don't be. Don't be a d-word. Yeah. Everyone be nice to everyone. It's. Yeah, as I said, as I said, it's not. It's only magic. That's what I'm gonna leave for today. James. Pleasure, ma'am. Thank you for that. Oh, it's a pleasure. Was good. Yeah, I, I went into this being like, this is my. This is the craziest episode I've ever done that I actually think is actually just being quite pleasant. Yeah. I'm sorry to disappoint. Yeah. No, I know I'm gonna say this as I'm so. Yes. With that. Yes. Thank you for being here. Lovely to keep us both in check. Where can people find you on the internet? I'm on the internet for all of my sins. Just so I'm hardy. I'm on blue Sky and discord predominantly. I, also did some legacy content after lockdown. Lucas. This one finished. So, So, yeah, just the family or the legacy gambit. But yeah, mainly blue sky discord. Just put Tom Hardy, you can find me, if you see me at events, you'll probably hear me, because who is not? You know, I'm usually the only loud lady wearing colorful clothes, so come find me. I'm very nice. But not when I'm playing magic. Honestly. Let's be respectful if I'm playing in a competitive setting. But, you know, outside of that, come say hello. I'm very friendly. We usually have snacks. Well, I think I'm going to say we do like you. Yeah, that's gonna do it for today. Thank you all very much for listening. Do make sure you give the podcast a five star review. Tell a friend all that good stuff. Until next time. It's goodbye from me. It's goodbye from James. It's goodbye from wifey. We'll see you soon. Bye.