Powerful Nothing

What is the best size for a cube? - #65

• Too Sweet MTG • Season 1 • Episode 65

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In this episode we will discuss what is the best size for a cube, what are the advanatages and disadvanatages of a smaller or a larger cube, so you can work out what's best for you!

00:03:06 - Benefits of a smaller cube
00:10:36 - Negatives of a smaller cube
00:18:32 - Benefits of a larger cube
00:30:26 - Negatives of a larger cube
00:38:56 - Most common sizes
00:49:07 - What do we think?

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Hello everyone. Welcome back to Powerful Nothing and Magic The Gathering Cube podcast. I'm your host, Dan, and as always, I'm joined by James. James. How are you doing this morning? You well I'm well I'm well it's very early when we have a chaotic mess. I'm adjusting to that. I don't normally speak this early on a, Saturday morning, but that's okay. Yeah. A quick peek behind the curtain. Normally we're going to record after work, midnight, midweek, but we're doing this bright and early on on a Saturday morning. I've never I've never seen your room in daylight, James, but there is, in fact, a window. Yeah, it's a new feature. I love that for you. Come on. Yeah. We have an awesome I'm excited everyone today. Today we're going to be talking about the what is the best size for a cube. This might seem like a quite a simple topic, but it is one of the first things you have to think about when you're putting a cube together. And it really is like along with power, it is one of the most important things that will actually affect the cube in terms of how it plays, how it feels like how many people you can keep with these are all things that are affected by this decision. So there also isn't a right or wrong answer. So what we're going to be doing today is going over kind of like all the things that you have to consider. So basically to give you the tools you need to make the decision that's best for you and your cube group. So I think the let's start off with kind of like the minimum size of a cube, is every player you are cubing with getting three packs of 15, that's kind of like the bare minimum that we have to hit. The. Normally the most optimal size of a draft is eight players, mainly because you can work out pairings with that very easily. Kind of like you. You can either start randomizing or playing across pod, and then everyone plays someone with the same record. And at the end of that you get a nice, clean winner after three rounds, with only one person going three oh is why they do it in stores, it's why they do it. But at the level it's a nice clean number. So with that scenario, each player needs 45 cards, meaning for a standard draft, 45 times eight players is 360. So to get a cube aimed at eight players, 360 cards is the smallest number you can normally go for. And that's primarily the number that we'll be using as our smallest cube number. That's like our base level, but this does work with any size of pod. You do need to adjust your numbers up and down. So for like when we talk about like four player cubes there, the math, as it were is 45 times four. So 180 cards. So if you're looking at building a four player cube, adjust the numbers up or down basically. Yeah for sure. And also if you if you're building a, a cube to play with a specific group of people, if you're like, yeah, this is the six people I always draft way if we team draft or whatever and, and bounce at around six people, you know, there's no, there's no rule said with the limit for your actual play group if, if you are basically going to be playing with the same group of people every time. Yeah, exactly. It's just basically if we say like, because 360 is kind of the shorthand for us for the smallest group. Basically, if we say that number, think of that as like the that is like wet where every card is being drafted. That's kind of like the entry level for it. So I just want to get that out the way at the start. But kind of like, let's actually start with the benefits of a smaller cube. And I say worth mentioning as a little spoiler. Some of these benefits will actually be negatives, which we don't do in a moment, but kind of James, for you, what are some benefits of a smaller cube? Like like a cube where it's the smallest number of cards possible, where you are drafting every card. So I think the the number of cards in your cube is something you can you can set as you, set off on your cube design journey. Right. But you can also, sort of audible out of it. Right? So I think one one thing is if if you feel like you're adding a lot of filler cards just to just sort of make numbers to get up to that 540 mark, for example, which is often seen as the default, then maybe that's the time where you, you know, with that specific cube you're building, like actually a building a 360 let's me have all cards that I am excited to have in the cube. I don't need to add a bunch of filler cards to get to a 540. So keeping it to just cards you excited about. So I guess is, it is one very, very clear benefit if, if that applies to your cube, often you will have 540 cards for your six five making, in which case, scaling up to a 545. I think that is, you know, that is a of knob you can turn to, to optimize a little bit. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. As a entry point, starting with the smallest number of cards possible is definitely like smaller cubes. Definitely easier to put together for a number of reasons. But basically, there's less cards. There's less. Kind of like interactions and synergies and kind of like decks. You have to kind of worry about. You kind of just get your ten archetypes in there, nice and easily so. So from a it is an easy cube to put together, but it's also a cheaper cube to put together. Having less cards shockingly means it's less expensive because you have to physically buy less magic cards. But it's not just the cards, it's also things like you need less sleeves. James, you've received your cube recently. It's not the cheapest of things, is it? Yeah. No, it's kind of disgusting, actually. I'm, I'm keeping my legs in good business, buying tremendous amounts of stock and shield. But, yeah. No, it's the sleeves. It's a physical cosmos. But even if you're getting Foxy's right, like, good, good quality, Foxy's aren't free. And, it also just makes it way more transportable if it's smaller. Yes. Well, the box as well. Like, like most of my cubes now come in two boxes. I have a box for lands and a box for the cube itself. But like if it was a small if I had a smaller key, like a probably for everything nice and neatly in one box. These are things I kind of like. These are kind of like just added cost you have to consider as you start going up in size and that kind of stuff. And like, I like just finding a box for like a super large cube, like a 720 cube, like like I've seen lots of people like, get them custom made. And when you're excited getting like custom wood boxes made your in the hundreds rather than like the tens and 20 with like a fat packed box will no longer do basically work for a larger cube. Yeah for sure, for sure. And also like the, it just lets you take at places that you wouldn't if it's, if it's a lot. Well, if it's, if it's a bit more compact. Right. I, I drafted my what I wanted cause all the stuff the cube did a fight of a Winson Draft on a train recently. It was great. You can't do that with a 540 gallon now on its own, yeah. Portability is something that I am becoming more and more of a fan for. I mean, if I'll be like, this is a segue, but it's one reason why Dan Dan's become very popular is like, it's not just the interaction, it is the form factor as well, which is nice, but but yeah, some of the things with smaller cubes is that, because there was a smaller card pool, you are quicker to find out, like problem interaction. It's kind of like because you're drafting every card, you will see everything that you're testing. Like, I've had some cards in my 540 cube that, just because of randomization, haven't been seen in like the three drafts we've done of them. So I have no idea. From a test point of view how good those cards are. But in the 360 cube, you will get guaranteed data immediately because it's as you know, it's going to get drafted. That is something that kind of like as you like, as cube designers is very helpful information. And just being able to guarantee that data is quite nice. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And then lets you it lets you iterate quite quickly, right? If you're getting that instant feedback on all the on all the cards you put in, it's like and I, I guess probably the main thing actually with smaller cubes, they're kind of like, if you listen to one of my set reviews, this would be part of the thing that I rattle off at the start every time. But smaller cubes are, generally speaking, more powerful. This is something James and I touched on in terms of like, you don't have to really add any filler cards, but it just means that basically it's more condensed because there are less spots in there. You're more likely to be running the most efficient version. It's kind of like in a larger cube, you might run like, like redundancy, all the stacks, because you need them to scale up the size of the cube. But like if you're just if you only have room for like three bits of white interaction in your smaller cube, you're going to run sword's path. And like a two man variant, there isn't going to be like like you're not going to be hitting like the fourth or fifth version of that effect. You're just running the best version of that effect. So normally in a two in a 360 cube, in a smaller cube, you are getting all the powerful cards. And because also every card is being drafted, it means that nothing is being left in the box. It means that people's decks generally are stronger in a 360 cube as well, because every card is being opened and all those cards, in theory, are a higher level because you're more likely to have picked the best version of that effect for your cube to get in in the first place. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And that's, you get less filler and you get your you can make decisions about more narrow interactions that you feed into your cube, like, you can put in and which are good with 1 or 2 other cards. And you're not worried about that card being dead, because the other part is not opened. So obviously, like this is sort of clear this with like narrow two card combos by like the sort if you put pops the foundry and then sort of a mix will also be opened. Whereas pop to foundry is pretty dead card when, when solid isn't opened. I found upsides and downsides to that, but, it is it it does mean you don't have dead cards in the draft. Hundreds. And I think the main, probably the best example of that is dark depths. Like dark depths is so much better in a 360 cube where, you know, one, that dark depth is going to be open because only one of that effect, and you know that your thespian stage or your or your vampire, you know, is going to get opened. Whereas like in a larger cube, but you're not opening every card. You might draft the thespian stage or the vampire hex mate. And just like the the one card pay off just might not be opened in a 360. Click in the three to keep. You are guaranteed to open both halves of that combo. And the only difference in that is like someone else might draft it, but like you have that, but at least you know it's going to be in the pool when you're making your decision to take one of those cards. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I, I think there's positives and negatives to that vibe, but it adds that element of predictability. I think in the draft. Exactly. Which I think kind of leads us on to the negatives of a smaller cube and less like the main one for me is less variety in both as the draft and in the gameplay, because every card is being opened, you know, as we said, like like, yeah, what we just talked about, about knowing everything is going to open is a positive and the negative. It means that you will often see similar decks, because if everyone kind of gets into their archetypes, there's no really variety in the deck. It's more it's kind of like, who got the lightning bolt in the red deck, that kind of thing. That's kind of like the main variance, but kind of like I know from like 3 or 60 teams that kind of we've drafted in the past, kind of like like, it was a few years ago, but like, like knowing that kind of like the combo that was always going to get all its pieces meant that it was generally stronger. It's not really fighting for a bit too much space, basically. Like, like, like this was like a party I was doing a few years ago. But like you just mentioned, it was one of the best decks in the queue because people knew it was going to be opened all the time and everybody was so, so, so you could take early and you knew you were going to get the deck together. Basically. Yeah. I think this is this is my main issue with, cube. So you draft every card in general because, to me, a lot of what makes draft fun, right, is for I, I'm playing with the, the possibilities of things I can see in the future. Right. And I'm trying to balance the probabilities that I get all these pieces, and I'm trying to plan for that, but nothing is guaranteed. And I always have, you know, imperfect results and imperfect information about what my deck is going to end up looking like. And when all the cards are being drafted, especially when a lot of the cards are very contextual. They work only in certain contexts with certain other cards. It kind of does start to feel a little bit deterministic really sometimes. So I think the, the dark that's examples pretty good, right. Like, so let's say, when pack one I have I've talked that's in my opening pack, I don't take it I take something else that dark that comes back. Right. I take the Dark depths. Thespian stage is now basically in my pool because everyone else has seen the dark depths. They haven't taken it, so they probably don't have the stage. So the stage hasn't been opened as pack. They know Dark Depths has gone. So you have zero reason to take a stage in future. I am I'm like basically a lock to see that thespian stage. Which is fine. But to me, that's kind of less fun than if I have to balance the possibility that I do or don't Cfsp in stage. Now. It makes it. Yeah. It just adds that, that element of predictability. And that's like, obviously a very, like, narrow, on the nose example, but there's, You know, especially when you have like, big, like sweeping, synergistic archetypes. You know, if you're the only person in the artifact stack and you know that after pack one, you kind of know what your deck is going to be at the end, like, like to within a reasonable degree of certainty. Like, obviously there will be some cards which everyone wants, but you may or may not get, but for the core synergy pieces for your deck, you know what is going to be in your deck. And you don't really have to plan for like, oh, maybe I get the pieces to support this, maybe I don't. Should I take this more narrow card or this more generally good card? It's like, no, no, I know I'm going to get bad. Like, I don't have a pieces yet, but I know that no one else wants them, so I will get them because they will be opened. Yeah, I, I like it when I have to make judgment calls about, what I think I might get down vote in the draft. To me, it is less fun when I sort of know what I'm going to get. No, definitely, I, I would say that I'm in the same campus. You. But I do think that that is still a that is a preference of us. It's not like like we're not saying it is a fact. The 360 cubes, the gameplay experience is worse because I think that's just our opinion of it. Like like we both like the variety with the draft. And also we are fortunate enough to draft fairly regularly. I think if you are in a play group where you might be drafting a cube like once a month or once every three months or something like that, having a small cube where like where like the changes to the cube, how you make updates every time rather than the variety in what is opened, I think is still perfectly fine. Like I think I again, it is up for you, dear listener, to work out if you are making a cube. What is what like is the cost. Savings is like the time of putting it together. Is that worth the flip side of well, one actually having a more powerful cube, but two just seeing the same gameplay every time, like like like old or the same kind of deck. Same time. Like like again. This is for you to decide where we are, presenting the facts to you and giving our opinions on it. Yeah, I think that's a great point. Actually. I think honestly, this concern on this doesn't apply for the first sort of 5 to 10 drafts you do with a cube. Because in that phase you're still working out what the good decks look like, right? You you're still working out where all the pieces fit. Assuming. Yeah, I say the first five, ten drafts are like you. Assuming it's not very similar to cubes. You've guessed it before. I think like a long term, it does kind of have a replayability for me. It's like an end, like, so I feel like there are some. But like for your main cube, I do agree we kind of play with where we are on it, but like for like a second cube or for a more gimmicky cube, I think like there are actual benefits of it being or being every card being drafted, like like like all the four player cubes that we do like like you're not up to cube James. Those are cubes where every card is being drafted, and that's by design. And like for those going to you, I think I actually like that a little bit more because it is a like the form factor of other than 180 cards means it does fit into a long box with lands and stuff that is quite nice and like, because in theory we're not doing those as often. Having ever been drafted, I do quite like for those so for four cubes with four players, I think drafting every card is actually a I think I like it more in in those scenarios than a bigger one. And also for cubes where kind of like your it's more of like, I'm going to use the word gimmick here, but like, I mean like, if your cube is built around a certain thing kind of like a desert cube, for example, where like you have to draft your lands in those scenarios. I think drafting every card is probably a benefit, because you can control the environment and you know that you're going to be able to get across the gimmick or like the point of the cube, like top of the things is going to be like half your kind of cool interactions are going to be left in the box. You know that the players are going to get the exact design experience that you've made for them, so that those examples for those cubes, I think dropping every card is definitely a benefit as well. Yeah, for sure. And I think with those cubes, you're generally less likely to be like 20 drafts. Defense of a key. Valid point. Right. So maybe we play those random as much. I was like went for four player cube. The other reason why I made the the mini version of the out of the cube 180 was that I want to be able to Winston draft it with two players. Oh, nice. Yeah. And that that gets a bit tough if it's much bigger than one issue. Right. Because then you're just seeing such a small amount of the cards for account those maxed out the work. Nice. Oh yeah. So I think we've kind of touched on small cubes. Let's move on to larger cubes. So we'll kind of go into more specifics in a bit. But by larger cubes we are referring to a draft environment where some of the cube is left in the box. We'll go over specific numbers in a minute. But like specifically here, we mean like it could be a quarter of the cube left in the box. It could be half the cube, it could be a whole extra size again. But it's biologically we just we just mean that you are not drafting every card in the cube. Some is being left out. So one of the benefits of this so Jamie's going to talk about like like so we have I think a cube. How does that affect the variety. If, if in a smaller cube we have less variety because every card is being opened. How I'm I think a bigger pool of cards is going to have more variety. Talk to me about that, James. Yeah, for sure. You end up with more variety in where the decks end up because you just have more of a vat of cards like if you take, for example, say like a powered cube, like a, Like make go vintage cube adjacent type cube might be, if you were to build a free 60 version of that, you have so few that flat slots. Right? It's kind of it's kind of unreal. Unless you want a lot of stuff cutting some of the really powerful cards because you don't like the play experience. If you're just building the powerful cards, then you basically don't really have many decisions as a, as a cube designer, because there are just so many uncomfortable cards in that cube. Why is beefing up to 540 gives you some space to try new cards, and it gives you some space to, like experiment with new packages, which then add more replayability to you down the line. Right. Because if you just build 5060 with the powerful cards, then that's really not going to change very often. It'll change when I never release a modern horizon set. But outside of that, you say you're going to be putting in like 1 or 2 cards each. That and, a bunch of them will end up getting cut and you'll just end up with the very similar core gameplay experience. And oh, is all these cards getting drafted about Will at some point, I think, become become a little bit repetitive? But as great a variety of cards create a variance within the draft right of what you're going to see. And, you just end up with packs which are less powerful. But I think, a greater range, which is, is, I think, really the key, the key in a lot of ways to building a cube which has longevity, I think. I think often we talk about cubes that said, like, oh, they're not, they're not, I think there's a very different thing between building a cube that is fun for five draft and a cube for there's fun for 20 drafts. And I'm not saying that like, it's not worth your time to build a cube that's fun for five drafts because you got five drafts worth the fun out of it. And that's great. Like, I've definitely built cube, so I'm not going to be, you know, I'm not planning to be drafting it, you know, every couple of weeks, five, eight hours. But, if that is your goal, I think if it asks slightly different things, if you fan them than if you're just planning to draft it a few times, you know, you know, if any need that replayability, say, need for variety. Though definitely. And then, yeah, I completely agree with that. The variety for me, I really love about larger cubes and also have a lot of where that variety comes from isn't just like you're not opening every card, but yeah, you have more room, you have more space to try things, but like at a base level that comes on your basic effects, like like in a larger cube, you are less tied to running the most optimal version of a card. Because you probably already have like the most optimal versions of cards in like in certain slots. So it's like what Byrne like, but generally talk about this in 70s and stuff, but like like like like generally in a logic, if you'll run like lightning bolt that's lightning chain lightning. And then after that you have like probably the need for two more slots after the most efficient ones, you can start running ones that synergize with things that your deck is doing. So like I talk about this like a bunch in the set of ideas, but kind of like, in my cube, I have artifacts. I run Pyrite Spell bomb as my third or fourth bit of burn. It's a it's an effect that a red deck will want, but it has additional synergy in the artifact deck in a larger cube you can do this for basically so that there are so many additional slots that you can do this for, like you can like tie like like any kind of staple like like your ramp in green. If you have enchantments, you can swap some over to be on like wild growth effects. There's plenty more slots where you can really tailor this and just kind of like like by dropping the raw power level and you add synergy, which makes more interesting Dex. And that's easier to do in a larger cube because you can still run the you can still run the source to plowshares, but you can run the synergistic version of that as well. Like you can run the oblivion ring to go with your Enchantress deck as well. You don't have to make the hard choice. You can run both. And that's really nice because like that there is a bit of Timi in all of us doing a plus B equals cool thing is, people still like doing that and no matter how much of a gamer they are, that is still something other people like. So it just gives you logic cubes, gives you gives players more opportunity to find the cool interaction that you can kind of seed in that because you have more slots. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And it's also kind of nice, right, that sometimes the interactions don't come up every draft. It means people discover things, slowly, like, like, oh, I kind of I hadn't thought of that. Whereas if it's a minimum sized cube, everything sort of discovered right away because we see all the cards that draft a dungeon and actually going to bring it onto another thing that's quite nice is the larger cubes are more forgiving of power level, because you're not opening every code like, oh, in a cube where you're opening every card, the power level is there. It's guaranteed. Like, like like if one deck is more powerful than another deck, it's going to be seen because every card is being opened and a larger cube, bits of decks might be left in the like, like, like like the aggro deck might not get that, got overwrought like bombardiers or like the gruel that you might not, might not get the Minsk because it wasn't opened there. Is this like a kind of like averaging effect to kind of like smooths out the peaks and troughs, because not every deck is the most optimal version, kind of like like in a larger keeping, like every deck is like is is not 100% because all its cards weren't opened or doesn't have the potential to be 100%. It's like like the ceiling for every deck is slightly lower. So I find that that does come even things out quite nicely. It means that kind of like as a play environment, it is more forgiving for players not having to have the most optimal version of the deck. I've generally found anyway, yeah, I can see that as a bit more forgiving of power outliers, right? Because the, you know, the first time someone kills you have about five bombardiers. You know, you can actually do some pretty sweet things of that. Cards like edits, you know, like, oh, that was cool. You did for Fang. Congratulations. For me for, the 10th time. It happens. It's getting kind of boring, you know? Yeah. And if it's not open that free draft, it just it just spreads out that title, that. And maybe you get to keep for five on the days around for a little bit longer before, you know, players are complaining about that and you can you can move it to the sideboard. And actually talking about players, that's a nice little segue. One things with Logic Cube is they fit more people with a if you're doing a three and 60 cube or the smallest size of a cube, if another friend comes along, you can't fit them in because every card is being drafted. One of the things I do like about larger cubes is that you can fit more players in, like like with a again, we will do large numbers in a minute, but like with a with a 540 cube, you can have up to 12 people. And I'm not saying that like I think we've done that maybe once or twice in like this six years I've had my cube together, but we've done plenty of like nines and tens like that does happen quite a bit. Not having to turn people away is something I personally quite like, and that's something that you can do with larger cubes. You have the flexibility. Yeah, for sure. I remember organizing the cube drafts of being organized. And people had free 60s. That was a thing where it was like, well, invite these eight people. And then when they come to come, they will invite more people because they don't want to just invite everyone. And then more people come and they have to say, no, no, you have to you have to go away because, because we can only ship people. So yeah, having that, that flexibility is very good. I guess it is also worth thinking about, like, like how many people you've actually kind of got, because if you're actually getting, like, more of the six people and build than building at 540 might feel a bit to cut out. Right. You've run into the issues of your condos don't work because you're seeing closer to like half a cube every time. So yeah, that's something to keep in mind. But yeah, I think generally, yeah. The more cards you have, the more flexibility you have. It's quite nice. And the last thing we want to touch on for benefits anyway was that with a larger cube, it is easier to make cuts and to make swaps. Like, think of it like commander. Like we've all been there with a pile of like 200 cards. We need to get into 100 cards. Imagine if we could make. I'll come on the deck 50% bigger. That's kind of. That is something you can and like, if I'm honest with you, that is probably the biggest reason why people have larger cubes. Like like there are so many like there's a lot of kind of like logistical reasons and play pattern reasons which should, which should all be considered. But a lot of people will go for a larger cube because it's like, oh, I get to add more cards and we all like magic cards, games that I do think that is a big part of people's reasoning for going for logic, like a benefit is you get to look at and you get to include and think about more cards. And as magic plays, that something that's like fundamentally, I think we all generally like, yeah, for sure. Like adding cards. Yucky. That's really fun. And cutting cards isn't like we always like when we draft. We always chat about cards to add. And then some of the kids afterwards for a solid hour. Right. And, there's a lot it's a, there's a lot more chat about cool cards to add than, maybe we don't need this, that piece of whatever. Right. Because it's, and making cards can be hard. Like, if you built your cube. Well, all the cards have in there for a reason, right? And, I think that's maybe a topic we can get into on that side is how you make those cuts. But, if you have a bigger cube, you do just have a little bit more fat, right? A can can be trimmed and and that's nice. You don't have to. It's not like every time you make a cut you have to be cutting like some fundamental strategy that's available in your cube because it's all so tight. It's, you can just cut some redundancy or whatever and it's okay. Yeah. And then, let's move on to some negatives of a larger cube and like, I think it is one that kind of does have to be considered. And the it is just more expensive. Like if you have more cards, it means you have to buy more budget cards. That is more expensive. You need more sleeves and you need a bigger box. These are like and also. Yeah. And the form factor of having to carry a place is like I had to buy a separate bag to carry my cubes in because my normal rucksack didn't fit it. So when I bought a new bag, one consideration was like I took an empty cube box with me to take Max to see if it fit. These are things you have to consider. But but yeah, yeah, cost is a real thing. It's all I see in K boxes is people trying to cram that key into a cube. Oh yeah. No, it it is a real thing. And it's, it can be a little inconvenient, and it means that you, Yeah, you can't just bring your cube with you on the off chance some people on Spyro drive, right? And it's. Yeah, I guess we discuss a lot of these with, you know, the positives as the smaller cube, but, yeah, the, receivable cards, you have two cards on those get worse. Whether that's an upside or a downside for you, I guess it's a, it's a point of call, but it especially the two card combos where there isn't redundancy. Right. Yeah, those are much harder. Like, yeah, there's something like twin Combo. There's redundancy on both pieces. Right. So it's it's not as badly hit by best fakes. You got splinter Twin and Kiki and then you've got a bunch of B. You've got Xorg Pass to me and a bunch of other ones if you want. Then, the combos like say fuck the sword. There is no other pop to foundry and there's no other sword. Me right. Yeah. I think, yeah. And then, like, same thing called like devoted druid. But I have only ever seen this be good in a 360 cube. Like in a 360 cube. I've got this. I've got the devoted druid. Infinite amount of combo off a couple of times, but in any cube bigger, I have just never got it off. I've never seen it. I've never even seen it work in a cube. Basically just because both players have both guys get both bits and like, yeah, it's just never come up. Like I think I devoted Druid and the combo that turns it into a vehicle and my cube for life after you come back. Yeah, for like two years, no one ever did it. No one ever did it. So I end up cutting both bits because it's like, well, this is kind of pointless. And like that is something that like it's a two card combo with no redundancy. There isn't another devoted droid and there isn't another target creature becomes a vehicle effect. But there are kind of like other ways of combo going off with devoted droid, but they're all bad cards that you wouldn't run outside of, devoted like outside the combo. And as if it's never coming up, which is kind of a bit frustrating. And that's is something that does happen with but with larger cubes, like, like, like those specific combos are just way worse and like like like actually real question, real talk. James, when was the last time you saw someone make a marital age in any larger size? Cube? Oh, I, I still have it in my hands like it's not. It's one of those combos for me. And no doubt cube right now. Oh. Certainly if I didn't draft it much last season, but the season before, I did some facts. And I did draft that back and it's one of those combos where it's like, I'm not really spending pick some of the cards. I'm not like sending a veil pick to speculate on the dark depths. But if I'm doing the lands thing, I often get the dark snaps for free and that if I get the stage, I will run it. Because you have the waste issues of all that, right? That's it. Yeah, they they did they did go a bit harder on the land stack and vintage completion. So, so so yes. And maybe that's kind of give it a bit of a bit of a resurgence. But I mean, just from my personal anecdote, I've not seen anyone do it in paper in any of our games in quite a while. Yeah. It's cool. So it's staying in for now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it always has the issue, right? Where you, you put a bunch of effort and do your whole thing, and then they just have to exile your merit, like, you know. Yeah. Quite sad. Yeah. The druid one makes me sad. I had fat in my back ages, and in my head, it should still be good, because I think devoted druid is still like a pretty decent. Like it makes you two mana at some point. But I think the thing is that is just it's probably less true than it used to be. Like, we're just a little bit less forgiving of two mana dogs now, right? But, like, exactly. Sylvan carrier said it's it can't die off fanatic or phonies. And yeah, they either make a bunch of mana or they make any color of mana. Just making a single green for two isn't as hot anymore. Some of the things to consider. Some of the negatives of a logic game is that, it takes longer to get information on your tests. As I mentioned earlier, there are cards that I have not seen that I've added like 3 or 4 drops ago. And I'm not saying just because a third of my cube isn't being opened. It does take longer to get like like I've had cards have come in, been in for like six months and have come out with net, but I've never been played because the better version has come out in like Modern Horizons or something like that. And it's like that can be frustrating because it means you just don't get the information in terms of like how good a card is or kind of like like, oh, like you can sometimes I can add a whole archetype, but that's just me being a bit more trigger happy with stuff. I like fiddling, I like mucking around with cubes and like analogy cube. You don't get that information, partly because one it could not be opened, but also because two you're dropped is have other options. Yeah. No, it's a very real thing. It's in a in a, in a small cube, you just get instant feedback. If a card goes last pick a few times, it's probably bad. Whereas in a, in a logic cube you don't really get that. Exactly. And that could also not just be because the card is bad, like, like in a logic cube, because that there's also more archetypes. People just might not be in those archetypes. So that is a reason why they might not be open. But another thing, I see, a final one I thought of actually while we were recording is there is a thing of in larger cubes, it's less noticeable if you lose cards in a like, like we had it recently with your 180 on a top to key, where basically we knew at the start there was 181 cards in the pool. So somewhere one. So at some point I basically had to go in. So we just basically had this back out in the middle. Whoever had the land in the pack could swap it out for that card, but that works the other way. If if you are dropping every card, you know immediately if you are missing a card. I'll be honest with you, I haven't. I'm assuming I have 540 cards in my large cube. I haven't counted it in like a year. At least it hasn't been a cut I've wanted to make. Like like, did you see what I mean? Like, if you lose a card in a in a, in a court, in a cube where every card is being opened, you will know the next time you go to drop it, but a card is missing and you can start chasing that up. What I'm basically saying is I should count my cube at some point. That's the yeah, I agree, I think this is a positive for mid-sized cubes because. Yeah, like with the with the one second cube, I am a pretty much 100% sure of the list. This all cube top is exactly the same as the cards in the box with my 540. Oh, you don't even. I'm not really sure. Like it's it's. I think it's very clear. I wouldn't go that far. Like, I know if you go, but it's like like that's a whole. When I do a cube update, it's a whole evening of like, okay, we have the pile here, we have the pile here, we have the laptop in the middle, the sleeves will interchange. And now we update Cube Cobra. But yeah, I think this is actually a pretty big negative. Larger cubes in general is that the admin is harder. There is a lot more admin. Yes. Yeah. You have a lot of the cube admin. I'm really I really enjoy making the lists on cube. Coper. Yeah, translating to the box is so much admin. Yeah I feel you know. Yeah, yeah. And it does get more complicated with larger cubes. And also in terms of just like like there's more overlap in terms of decks and mechanics and you have more room for stuff, kind of like let's actually kind of keep the ball rolling and talk about like, what size, what sizes of cubes that you often see when it comes to logic. Because obviously like, like again, we are going with this where eight people is the norm. So we know that 360 is the minimum. Everybody's being opened. The general sizes that you generally see and like, people can build anything within this realm, but these are the most common because they kind of work in terms of like, multiplying or multiple factors. So you often see four 50s, which is 1.25 the size of a normal cube. So you have an additional 0.25 over the minimum. Five 40s is the next common, I think probably the most common. That's what the makeup industry is. That's what a lot of people will build that cube as if they are going for that larger number. With that you are that is 1.5 times the size of the smallest cube. So you have you have a whole extra third of your cube available to you. And then and then once you go about 540, it is kind of like the Wild West in terms of what size you go for. But like generally if you're going about 540 on like the peak is normally 720, which is twice the size of a 360 cube. So you have double the amount of bits or you, you have double the amount of minimum effect. And there are some things you need to consider if you're going above a 360, because it's not just you just get if you're going from a 360 to a 540, you just don't get an extra 90 slots to just add whatever card you want. If you're if every card if it if every card isn't being opened, you have to add redundancy to effects. And that's not just like I need an extra removal spell in black. It's like I need extra lands. I need to make sure like like all of my like all the pieces my key players need to see needs to be extended as well. And like that is still cool because you you can still get more variety in those bits. But it's not just like a oh, I have 100 cards to at add at a whole extra archetype. Or oh, I got a bunch of packages. You still have to add your redundant effects to things like you have to make sure your staples that like, yeah, your black remove all your blue counter magic, your green ramp, yeah, your lands, all that stuff. You still have to add those bits as well. When you update the size of the cube. So really realistically, if you're going from a 360 to a 540, you probably get maybe like an extra one. So if you're going up by like 180 cards, probably like 80 to 100 of those are staples and the extra 100 is the cool bit basically is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, for sure, I think I mean, I have seen cubes that go even bigger. I think once you get through it's past that, it is in the crisp. It sort of starts to feel like a slightly more tuned section of like a chaos draft or something like, rather than the very curated cube, which is not a bad thing kind of stuff. So really fun. But, it's quite a different experience, I think, from a, a regular cube. Yeah, I mean, I so I, I definitely have a build your own chaos graph, which I think how many cubes it's, I think it's just under 2000 cards. But for that I do collated packs because it's just too big. You could like, you would get no predictability or draft ability out of it. Like, like like the curves would be wild. The color density of like in what kind of decks would be off the chain. So that's something I guess you have to consider if you're going like, well, like I'm going to be honest here, we do not have that much experience with cubes that are above a thousand cards, despite me having one. But like is anything about like once you get like really, really large, you will have to do things like pack correlation. Otherwise it's just going to be a shit show basically. Would be my gut. And how do you shuffle a thousand cards? You see, no shuffle like so. I effectively have a long box. I have like, it's like a, it's like a shoe box. So it's kind of split into like two long boxes inside. And in that I have it set by color. So I will shuffle shuffle colors together and then make packs from that because I've actually mine's like a build, booster at home thing. Yeah, yeah. No, it was very cool. Is definitely more effort than I would like, but that I'll be honest with you, I did that. Yeah, I built that after I had surgery and couldn't do anything for two weeks. I just spent two weeks on a spreadsheet. Check the things we do for cube. But yeah, some other things you also have to consider for larger cubes. Scale, is, as we discussed, things like pay offs for decks, things like combo pieces. It is like you have to look for those redundant effects. And it's why, you know, James mentioned expense to it because there's a redundancy on both parts. But it's also why people have really tried persist combo for so long, despite the fact I never thought it got there. It is a is common pieces where there are so much redundancy because you need to sacrifice outlook. There's a bunch of sacrifice outlets. You need persist features. There are some good playable ones and you need ways of putting cameras on things. There is redundancy on all of those pieces, so that's why people have, I think, have really tried to get this combos working. And like for some cubes it will definitely work. But like in the ones that we've played in, it hasn't really got there. But white, it's still being tested. It's because every piece has enough redundancy that you can add it to, by 40 cube and, you know, it's going to get opened. That is something to consider. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I mean, it's not like the end of world if you have some flat cards and it's I think it's actually a good, a good play pattern for players need to spec on stuff without the guarantee of getting paid off. Right. And it means you need to stay flexible in your draft because you don't know what cards you cannot see. And maybe I spec on this combo piece and it doesn't get banned. That's fine. And I'm sort of simultaneously, you know, I'm building two decks sometimes on this, oh. Right. I'm building the deck where I get my other combo piece, and I'm a combo deck. I'm building the deck where I don't get my I have a combo piece, and I'm some, like, midrange. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the real for me. That's one of the bigger things I like about the draft experience of IT logic, because if you're doing a cube where every card is being opened, taking that splintered twin is more like it's not as much of a spec, it's more like planting your flag, whereas in a larger cube it is a spec because you don't know that in both scenarios there's the option of someone might take the other bits, but in a larger cube you also have to think of the rest of it might not even be opened. So it does feel like in a smaller cube as I am, I'm by me taking this. No one else will see this. So therefore I get this. Now. No one else will have any signal that it's open, so therefore it is mine. It's more of a guarantee. Whereas in a larger cube you are there is. It is definitely something that we said. And this might be something that comes from more for players who are more experienced with cubing of like going I'd like despite not having an idea where you're going for longer. That is something that newer players will not like as much. There is something being said about like, oh, I take in this combo piece, pack in like early in pack one, and now I know my deck. That is something that is I, I would say is something that is more that newer players in cube will find more, so will be drawn to more because there's less stress there. There is a thing of like for more experienced players going into pack 2 or 3 and not really knowing what your deck is doing. I like having a vague idea, but not really. I of have like the the payoff or the thing like I'm like, I'm really narrowing down what the deck is doing is less of a thing for more experienced players. Would you agree with that? James? Yeah. Yes and no. I think it depends what sort of new players are. Right. Like because new new players don't know when when they see one half of the combo they don't know. Okay, I like they can plan. Right. And they don't know what goes with that. In some ways it's a better experience for them if everyone is figuring out as they go, because everyone has the uncertainty. And if the experienced players are able to, by now a whole task and what their deck is going to look like from very early, whereas the new players are just sort of figuring it out and splashing around, you know, is new to cube, a fairer way of putting it because I remember like like there's like I played magic for many years before I started cubing. I kind of like I had heard like, okay, this Gristle brand card I've heard is good. Like, that kind of thing. Is that fair? So like, like you, you already know, like you've done standard draft, you've played a bit of pioneer and then you start dipping your toe into make a cube and that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it I mean, I think it depends what your cube looks like. And how sort of quote unquote obvious the you've the combo is, just like the cards that go together. Right. Like it's really obvious that, you know, this standard animate that. Well, that, powerful combination of cards, right. It might be less obvious to people say that, like displacer kit and then coveted tool. I tried to come by together, right. And. Yeah, like, I don't know if you've not played with flash before, then you might not see what. Which I mean might not be immediately obvious which features you want in your flashback. And I think it's good, actually, this is sort of a border point and cubes side. I think it's good to have a few different packages that that fit in different places on that spectrum. I, it's good to have some which hit you over the head for and like put this with this. It will do the you this and it's good to have some which sort of take a bit of figuring out to, Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. So I think we're kind of we are starting to round up the conversation. So I kind of like everything we've kind of gone through before. This is kind of like we're basically trying to present the facts to you while having a discussion about them in terms of like benefits. Yeah. You're not in terms of larger cubes, smaller cubes to an extent, it is up to you to make the decision on the size of the cube. But you want the last part. We are just going to give our opinions on it because obviously obviously we have opinions. I mean, we have a podcast, obviously we but like, all right, I'm gonna give my opinions, James. And then feel free to give it up. But like for me, all of, I have two main cubes, I have my unpowered vintage, and I have my treat yourself to eat. Those are both five 40s. I like larger cubes for the cubes that I draft regularly because I. For me, variety is important and the ability to go up in size is nice. Like as I mentioned, we've only done like 1 or 212 person cubes, but we've done like ten. Going up or down from eight is quite common. And yeah, I like not like like all of our play group is people I like spending time with. Like all my friends, I don't I personally don't want to turn anyone away. So and it's nice as the organizer just be like, we just have a WhatsApp group and it's just like, who's in? Everyone says, yes, I know, like like if the world comes like where where we go above 12, it's more likely I would add more cast to the cube. At that point I do, but like that is something that I do like about having a larger cube. In terms of my so, so the ones I do regularly, that is where I say I like 540. I think it is a nice balance of you get additional flex shots and not everything is open ended gives you that variety. I think that is nice. I do like smaller cubes for certain things though, like I'm currently building like a pre modern board, a cube that will be for 50 because I still like the variety, but the cardboard not being bigger is important because because of pre-modern old board ID cards are now quite a bit more expensive. So I'm slowly putting that together. And like there is a world where where it could be a 360, but I like the, I think the 450 and one because I, because I like the I still like the variety in the draft of not every card being open. So so so so going to 450 is a nice kind of middle ground, I think, because there is still some of the cube not being open. So it's not a guarantee that you'd get the two card combo, but it's not as expensive as a 550, as a 540 or a 720 cube. I think that's real. I think that's important. Yeah, I think my my thoughts are pretty similar. For cubes that I am planning to draft a bunch of times, I don't really want them to be for minimum size because I want that element of unpredictable see in the drafts is kind of the biggest thing. And then secondary to that, I like the freedom to add more cards and experiment a bit more, which is is is harder in a smaller cube. For cube, this where I think we're probably not going to draft them as many times, and I just want to play something together because I think it's cool. That I think minimum size is, is fine because, because I'm like, I want the cube to do this thing. I want this experience. And we're going to draft it like five times. And I think that'll be pretty fun. And the minimum size means it's easier to put together. I'm not as like, invested in us continuing to draft it for ages and, we're sort of reliably going to create the gameplay experience I'm going for. I guess. And then when we get bored of it, whatever, that's fine. No, I think that's it. I think that's what was like a lot of our conversation is based on like, this is the size of your cube. It's set in stone. When reality the size of a cube is not set in stone, you can add cards and you can cut cards, but especially if you're new to cubing. Starting in a 360, to kind of get your, like, foot in the door is a great place to start. And then you can just add more coffee. You can go up to the next level once you want that variety. Once you're a bit more comfortable with the cube, with making cuts, making decisions, that kind of stuff, like, like once your playgroup is kind, I've got a bit used to it. Then you can add more cards. I would be a bit hesitant to kind of like like, like to do a thing of like every six months we're adding 100 cards because that seems a bit. But like, like starting at 360 and then going up to 450. So you get the variety and then maybe going up to 540 once you get that extra bit of comfortability, I think is a good place to go. But also I could see like there is a world where at some point in the future, I take my 540 and I downgraded to a 450 because that like I think can be a good two, or even just doing the, process of what would I cut to get me down to a 450 or what would I cut to get me down? Because that will actually show you the important parts, the important cards in your cube, even if you don't actually do it. Like like I would like it's something I need to do at some point. I just make things work out. What are the core cards in my cube? So I know what is the cut cards for later? I think can be quite an important thing, because it will quickly show you what is chaff and what is like and like where the like, where things are unbalanced. So so so even if you don't actually make the cut from you, keep still. Having in your head how you would downsize. A cube can be a good tool to help balancing basically. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And then I think the final thing that's worth mentioning is we talked on time the about cubes, which, sort of a round number of cards. Right. How do you feel about the approach if just, when I want to add some cards, I add some cards. If and if it ends up being, you know, planted in 76 cards, then that's the number of cards it is. So as someone who. So, so, yeah. So I, I've said my cubes are 540, my cubes are actually five, four, three. And 551 because we have exactly done that. Okay. So, so both of mine have a thing where if you win a certain amount, you get to add cards. You've actually had two of the cards to my five, 40 times, so you would so so in those respects, I am here for it. I think it's something you can do. Like, I would not do it at 360 because just having like two cards, like 361 is the worst size for a cube by just one card is being left. That I would not do that. I think that is like psychotic. Yeah. You just flip it. Yeah. Yeah. That's really funny. Is that I think yeah I think that is psychotic. But I think at larger cubes 100%. I also think I like you need like once you go above like 4 or 50 you can really do that. Like and I know, like I've seen plenty of people who, when they're testing cards will just add the 20 cards I testing. They won't cut anything, but that's perfectly fine as well. You don't have to be as basically everything else. Getting to the point of 540 is more hassle than getting to the point of 360, because you need more cards, because you need more sleeves, because it's more admin. But once you have it to that point, you you have more flexibility in terms of like, I'm just going to like swapping cards out is easier. Adding like, I just know cards on top is easier. Like once you get to the larger point, I think you have more flexibility to do stuff like that and play about with it a bit more. When you're at three six, you are a bit more tied to a box of I have to work in the realm of every card is being drafted. So, so, so yeah. So it's like you can't lose a card or add a card. You have to swap something in and out. Basically. Yeah for sure. I think the main reason I keep mine to random is just, I feel like when it drifts from that, I will have no remaining discipline. You just add cards, I think. Cool, that will end up being quite unbalanced. Then you'll have more cards of certain colors and other colors. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. That you definitely still have to be disciplined, but like like the ways that mine have got larger is more because it's, it's like rewards for people winning because we've drafted it so much. Yes. I think that's cool. And that's limited by it's like going to never going to be a huge number. Right. If you're adding one card when someone creates five drafts. Yeah. For content. Yeah. We've been drafting my game for six years. There's been three cards added in that time. I think we are close to a couple more being because obviously it takes time to be able to get to five wins. But like in six years, three cards being added is quite a slow pace. But like with my other one, the treat yourself, you get to just add a card if you win straight away. So we're up to like yeah, five, five one. So like that one at some point might have to like be checked, but it's more likely like like the cars that are added will stay. I'll just cut other cards from the queue. Like that's like it's less of a thing in larger games, but like like like like like yeah, yeah. And same with the testing of like, oh, hero, ten cards from Spider-Man. I want to test. I'm not going to cut ten cards because I can't be bothered. Like, I'm perfectly fine with that analogy, but I think it's like it's actually a fine thing to do of just like, I'm just going to add the add the test cards to the pile and I can take them out afterwards. I think that's fine. That's also less admin. I might start doing that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's it's not like it gets trickier with like when it comes to like archetype changes but like if it's just here is a slightly more efficient wipe three drop. Just add it and test it. Like you don't have to be like, that is a benefit specifically for logic. You can just do that. Yeah. That's cool. Marvelous. I think that brings us to the end of our conversation. James, thank you for that. I thought that was a really good little I got a good a good chat on something that is quite, quite fundamental, but there is actually quite a lot of depth and things to think about when you are putting a cube together, because, yeah, the size of cube along with power level is like the first thing you have to do is to just to think about. So yeah, good to for us to have a little chat on it. Yeah for sure. My pleasure. Marvelous. All right. So it's going to do it for today. Thank you all very much for listening to give the podcast a five star review, a thumbs up or whatever positive affirmation your podcasting platform of choice lets you do. Until next time, it's goodbye from me as you buy from James and we'll see you all soon. Goodbye.